Comments on: Chinese Medicine Demystified (Part IV): How Acupuncture Works http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works Medicine for the 21st century Thu, 09 Feb 2012 02:43:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Marley http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-7528 Marley Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:26:32 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-7528 Oh yeah, my partner has just gone past her due date- do you recommend any points for induction of labour (using Li4, SP6, ST36, K8, BL62 and TW22 at the mo). Are you a dad soon too? Cheers Oh yeah, my partner has just gone past her due date- do you recommend any points for induction of labour (using Li4, SP6, ST36, K8, BL62 and TW22 at the mo). Are you a dad soon too?
Cheers

]]> By: Marley http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-7527 Marley Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:20:51 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-7527 Hi Chris, Just want to say thanks again for all the great info. I heard on one of your podcast you mentioned that acupuncture can increase blood flow to the brain, and this could an important mechanism for how it works. Are there any points in particular that have been shown to do this, or are you looking at the "big" points like ST36, SP6, Liv3, Li4 etc? Also, I am interested in learning pulse diagnosis - can you recommend any books/sources that might be worthwhile reading? It seems like a bit of an art but I have definately noticed some changes after needling- do you use it much in your practice? Thanks again, Marley- New Zealand Hi Chris, Just want to say thanks again for all the great info.
I heard on one of your podcast you mentioned that acupuncture can increase blood flow to the brain, and this could an important mechanism for how it works. Are there any points in particular that have been shown to do this, or are you looking at the “big” points like ST36, SP6, Liv3, Li4 etc?
Also, I am interested in learning pulse diagnosis – can you recommend any books/sources that might be worthwhile reading? It seems like a bit of an art but I have definately noticed some changes after needling- do you use it much in your practice?
Thanks again, Marley- New Zealand

]]> By: Chris Kresser http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-6660 Chris Kresser Sat, 30 Apr 2011 16:40:21 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-6660 Welcome! I absolutely agree we don't have all the answers, and it may never be possible to completely map the Eastern perspective with Western correlates. Welcome! I absolutely agree we don’t have all the answers, and it may never be possible to completely map the Eastern perspective with Western correlates.

]]> By: Vilho Ahola http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-6659 Vilho Ahola Sat, 30 Apr 2011 16:32:19 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-6659 A collegiate hello from Finland. I stumbled into your blog researching paleo diet related longevity articles. Nice work. Regarding acupuncture, I think it is fair to admit that we probably don't yet have all the objective correlates of that system mapped out in a Western style (as the Eastern systems haven't been that keen on looking for mechanistic explanations on everything and also haven't had the methods to dig really deep). Have you seen these new studies which suggest there actually might be something going on in the ancient meridian theory that we haven't seen in Western medicine. Interesting times as developing methods of science show us more and more of Nature :) http://www.springerlink.com/content/v662660w12j80163/ http://www.tcmstudent.com/bonghan05.pdf http://www.martindenzer.com/download/Bonghan_III.PDF linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1567173906001404 Vilho Ahola, M.D. A collegiate hello from Finland.

I stumbled into your blog researching paleo diet related longevity articles. Nice work.

Regarding acupuncture, I think it is fair to admit that we probably don’t yet have all the objective correlates of that system mapped out in a Western style (as the Eastern systems haven’t been that keen on looking for mechanistic explanations on everything and also haven’t had the methods to dig really deep).

Have you seen these new studies which suggest there actually might be something going on in the ancient meridian theory that we haven’t seen in Western medicine. Interesting times as developing methods of science show us more and more of Nature :)

http://www.springerlink.com/content/v662660w12j80163/
http://www.tcmstudent.com/bonghan05.pdf
http://www.martindenzer.com/download/Bonghan_III.PDF
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1567173906001404

Vilho Ahola, M.D.

]]> By: Jacob Godwin http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-4785 Jacob Godwin Tue, 15 Feb 2011 03:50:39 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-4785 Great series of articles. I would, however, caution against throwing out the baby with the bath water. The concept of qi as it relates to human beings can, for the most part, be explained by physiological processes explained by modern medical science. It is important to promote this fact to the public and other healthcare providers. It is equally important to counter the bs out there. However, the Chinese word 'qi' is not only a medical term. It was used extensively in philosophical texts to explain the interconnectedness of phenomenal existence (see Hall and Ames Dao De Jing). The concept of qi absolutely cannot be translated as 'oxygen' or any other fixed entity for that matter, as it is the common 'fabric' of all existence. This is demonstrated in Laozi, Liezi, Chuangzi and several other classical Chinese philosophical texts. We need to make clear that the concept of qi AS APPLIED TO MEDICINE can be understood as oxygen, glucose, neural conduction, etc., but that the larger concept of qi as a philosophical term has much broader meaning. Not having the quantitative understanding of biology that we have today, the Chinese refered to unidentified form and function as 'qi' - the stuff of the universe. Thanks for your work! Great series of articles. I would, however, caution against throwing out the baby with the bath water. The concept of qi as it relates to human beings can, for the most part, be explained by physiological processes explained by modern medical science. It is important to promote this fact to the public and other healthcare providers. It is equally important to counter the bs out there. However, the Chinese word ‘qi’ is not only a medical term. It was used extensively in philosophical texts to explain the interconnectedness of phenomenal existence (see Hall and Ames Dao De Jing). The concept of qi absolutely cannot be translated as ‘oxygen’ or any other fixed entity for that matter, as it is the common ‘fabric’ of all existence. This is demonstrated in Laozi, Liezi, Chuangzi and several other classical Chinese philosophical texts. We need to make clear that the concept of qi AS APPLIED TO MEDICINE can be understood as oxygen, glucose, neural conduction, etc., but that the larger concept of qi as a philosophical term has much broader meaning. Not having the quantitative understanding of biology that we have today, the Chinese refered to unidentified form and function as ‘qi’ – the stuff of the universe. Thanks for your work!

]]> By: Charles http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-3154 Charles Wed, 03 Nov 2010 20:29:20 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-3154 Hi Chris, You mention that you're a longtime practitioner of qigong and ba hua. I know many people describe it as a sort of a cure-all, but I was wondering, as a health care provider, are there specific conditions that you think qigong is a useful treatment for? Would you prescribe it to a patient for specific conditions, or do you see it as just helpful for general health upkeep? Also, in the previous comments you discussed contact needling vs. acupuncture. I've been looking into trigger point therapy, whose purpose seems to be more limited (releasing muscle contractions). I was wondering if you have any experience with it and if you can comment on its efficacy relative to acupuncture. I know from first-hand experience that it does work well for pain or strained muscles, at least for me. Is it something that you would use or recommend in your practice, or is it unnecessary if you have acupuncture in your toolkit, so to speak? Hi Chris,

You mention that you’re a longtime practitioner of qigong and ba hua. I know many people describe it as a sort of a cure-all, but I was wondering, as a health care provider, are there specific conditions that you think qigong is a useful treatment for? Would you prescribe it to a patient for specific conditions, or do you see it as just helpful for general health upkeep?

Also, in the previous comments you discussed contact needling vs. acupuncture. I’ve been looking into trigger point therapy, whose purpose seems to be more limited (releasing muscle contractions). I was wondering if you have any experience with it and if you can comment on its efficacy relative to acupuncture. I know from first-hand experience that it does work well for pain or strained muscles, at least for me. Is it something that you would use or recommend in your practice, or is it unnecessary if you have acupuncture in your toolkit, so to speak?

]]> By: Chris Kresser http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-2101 Chris Kresser Sun, 29 Aug 2010 14:20:30 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-2101 I see where you're coming from, but I can't agree with your analogies. I do believe patients should be informed about how statins work (and don't work, actually) so they can decide whether they need to take them at all, or can use other less invasive, less harmful methods. The same for aspirin. I also believe - and the research clearly supports this - that when a patient 1) has a positive attitude about their treatment, and 2) believes that it will work, the treatment will be more effective. Explaining how acupuncture works in language they can understand is a step in that direction for most, although there's certainly a minority of patients (and practitioners) that prefers a more mystical, magical explanation. I see where you’re coming from, but I can’t agree with your analogies. I do believe patients should be informed about how statins work (and don’t work, actually) so they can decide whether they need to take them at all, or can use other less invasive, less harmful methods. The same for aspirin. I also believe – and the research clearly supports this – that when a patient 1) has a positive attitude about their treatment, and 2) believes that it will work, the treatment will be more effective. Explaining how acupuncture works in language they can understand is a step in that direction for most, although there’s certainly a minority of patients (and practitioners) that prefers a more mystical, magical explanation.

]]> By: Beavis http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-2099 Beavis Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:53:26 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-2099 Your series is very interesting, and I know there is a desire among many Westerners to understand Chinese Medicine in Western terms, but I do not agree that there is a "moral obligation" on the part of practitioners to be able to trot those mechanisms out on demand. If you can successfully treat patients and have them recover from their illness, is it that important that patients know the physiological mechanisms that do the job? Do patients in the West know how the statin drugs they are taking do what they do, and why? Do they even know why the aspirin they take helps alleviate their headache? On the other side of the coin, do successful treatments based on Meridian Theory mean that the acupuncturist just got lucky, while poking around in the dark? I think there is much more work to be done in reconciling the thought processes and perceptions of East and West.   Your series is very interesting, and I know there is a desire among many Westerners to understand Chinese Medicine in Western terms, but I do not agree that there is a “moral obligation” on the part of practitioners to be able to trot those mechanisms out on demand. If you can successfully treat patients and have them recover from their illness, is it that important that patients know the physiological mechanisms that do the job? Do patients in the West know how the statin drugs they are taking do what they do, and why? Do they even know why the aspirin they take helps alleviate their headache? On the other side of the coin, do successful treatments based on Meridian Theory mean that the acupuncturist just got lucky, while poking around in the dark? I think there is much more work to be done in reconciling the thought processes and perceptions of East and West.
 

]]> By: brad whisnant http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-2003 brad whisnant Wed, 04 Aug 2010 21:35:57 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-2003 Nicely done chris, I too am a senior student of Dr. Tan, and the Master Tung style.  I apprecaite your knowledge and explanation.  I talk about this all the time.  There is NO ENERGY required to do acupuncture.  It works off of very biologicaly and scientific reasons.  Very easy to understand.  As we know, energy is in everything, and at a quantum level we are ALL ENERGY...but this is NOT WHY OR WHY NOT acupuncture works or doesnt work.... thank you....now lets see if we can cant change the entire TCM school system to quit propagating these lies about the invisible meridians and Qi that MISTRANSLATED...it means "vital air", as in OXYGEN...not energy. i urge any acupuncturist a MUST MUST MUST MUST read or anybody who want to know the truth of a very scientific and discplined chinese medicine...read The Dao of Chinese medicine, by Kendall...... Bob doane is a master at explaining this, so Dr. Kendall.  I see over 30 patients by myself each day, i work with doctors--western and Eastern.  And do we talk methaphorically about the concepts of chinese medicine? Yes, it helps us understand the disease process.  But when it comes to how acupuncture works, there is no use for mistranslated explanations from 1910's and the 1950's.  There IS NO MAGIC IN OUR MEDICINE..... There IS NO MAGIC IN THE NEEDLE.... There is NO MAGIC IN THE HERBS... the magic is the bodies ability to heal once it is given the right healing modality.  that is the true magic, the power of the human body, wether we use Eastern medicine, Western medicine, or NO MEDICINE....the body is amazing thanks again chris, nicely done!!!! Nicely done chris,

I too am a senior student of Dr. Tan, and the Master Tung style.  I apprecaite your knowledge and explanation.  I talk about this all the time.  There is NO ENERGY required to do acupuncture.  It works off of very biologicaly and scientific reasons.  Very easy to understand.  As we know, energy is in everything, and at a quantum level we are ALL ENERGY…but this is NOT WHY OR WHY NOT acupuncture works or doesnt work….

thank you….now lets see if we can cant change the entire TCM school system to quit propagating these lies about the invisible meridians and Qi that MISTRANSLATED…it means “vital air”, as in OXYGEN…not energy.

i urge any acupuncturist a MUST MUST MUST MUST read or anybody who want to know the truth of a very scientific and discplined chinese medicine…read

The Dao of Chinese medicine, by Kendall……

Bob doane is a master at explaining this, so Dr. Kendall. 

I see over 30 patients by myself each day, i work with doctors–western and Eastern.  And do we talk methaphorically about the concepts of chinese medicine? Yes, it helps us understand the disease process.  But when it comes to how acupuncture works, there is no use for mistranslated explanations from 1910′s and the 1950′s. 

There IS NO MAGIC IN OUR MEDICINE…..
There IS NO MAGIC IN THE NEEDLE….
There is NO MAGIC IN THE HERBS…

the magic is the bodies ability to heal once it is given the right healing modality.  that is the true magic, the power of the human body, wether we use Eastern medicine, Western medicine, or NO MEDICINE….the body is amazing

thanks again chris, nicely done!!!!

]]> By: Chris Kresser http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-1405 Chris Kresser Sun, 13 Jun 2010 03:10:16 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-1405 <p>Yes, I do use pulse diagnosis but no, there is no scientific explanation that I'm aware of.  It's a mystery, but it works.</p> Yes, I do use pulse diagnosis but no, there is no scientific explanation that I’m aware of.  It’s a mystery, but it works.

]]> By: Marley http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-1403 Marley Sun, 13 Jun 2010 02:12:03 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-1403 yeah that makes sense, we seem to live in a very pro-sympathetic world. It ties into the stuff you have said about the omega 3-6 imbalance and the chronic inflammation that arises. Personally I am allergic to most fish , although I have just started trying fish oil and this seems ok. I have always had various allergies/asthma & ITP so the lack of omega 3 probably doesnt help . Do you use pulse diagnosis , and is there any science behind this?   yeah that makes sense, we seem to live in a very pro-sympathetic world. It ties into the stuff you have said about the omega 3-6 imbalance and the chronic inflammation that arises. Personally I am allergic to most fish , although I have just started trying fish oil and this seems ok. I have always had various allergies/asthma & ITP so the lack of omega 3 probably doesnt help
. Do you use pulse diagnosis , and is there any science behind this?
 

]]> By: Chris Kresser http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-1394 Chris Kresser Sat, 12 Jun 2010 14:25:32 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-1394 <p>Yes, my understanding is that the concha of the ear is the most accessible site for influencing the vagal nerve.  I use ear points in every single treatment because there's not a person I see that doesn't need some parasympathetic support.</p> Yes, my understanding is that the concha of the ear is the most accessible site for influencing the vagal nerve.  I use ear points in every single treatment because there’s not a person I see that doesn’t need some parasympathetic support.

]]> By: Marley http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-1393 Marley Sat, 12 Jun 2010 10:41:05 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-1393 Thanks for the reply chris, Both TCM and the western principles are amazing in their own way, so its nice to hear a mixed approach works. At the moment we are learning about the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems and how needling the ear or scalp points can decrease inflammation through the vagal nerve. Fascinating stuff Thanks for the reply chris,
Both TCM and the western principles are amazing in their own way, so its nice to hear a mixed approach works. At the moment we are learning about the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems and how needling the ear or scalp points can decrease inflammation through the vagal nerve. Fascinating stuff

]]> By: Chris Kresser http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-iv-how-acupuncture-works#comment-1391 Chris Kresser Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:07:02 +0000 http://chriskresser.com/?p=364#comment-1391 I'll get myself in trouble with other acupuncturists for saying this, but I don't believe the various needle techniques (twisting, inserting while breathing in or out, etc.) affect the clinical results much. My acupuncture teacher, Dr. Tan, who lectures all over the world and is a very successful practitioner, doesn't either - so I'm not alone. I don't think there's much danger in performing Western acupuncture without understanding the TCM philosophies. I say that because acupuncture is historically a channel-based therapy, not a "zang fu" therapy as herbal medicine is. I’ll get myself in trouble with other acupuncturists for saying this, but I don’t believe the various needle techniques (twisting, inserting while breathing in or out, etc.) affect the clinical results much. My acupuncture teacher, Dr. Tan, who lectures all over the world and is a very successful practitioner, doesn’t either – so I’m not alone. I don’t think there’s much danger in performing Western acupuncture without understanding the TCM philosophies. I say that because acupuncture is historically a channel-based therapy, not a “zang fu” therapy as herbal medicine is.

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