This article is part of a special report on Thyroid Disorders. To see the other articles in this series, click here.
In this final article in the series on Low T3 Syndrome, we’ll discuss whether thyroid hormone replacement therapy is an appropriate treatment in these cases.
Why T3 Levels Are Low
Unfortunately, there are few studies that have examined this question specifically, and even fewer that have explored the question of whether T4 or T3 (and which type of each) would be the best choice.
As a clinician, my primary concern is always primum non nocere, or “first, do no harm.” From this perspective it’s important to recognize that the changes seen in Low T3 Syndrome may represent a restorative physiological adaptation by the body to chronic illness.
For example, the changes observed in the thyroid axis in acute illness are similar to those observed in fasting, which can be interpreted as an attempt to reduce energy expenditure and protein wasting. (1) Giving fasting subjects thyroid hormone results in increased catabolism (breakdown). (2)
In cases of chronic illness, however, it is less clear what effect thyroid hormone replacement has. The few studies that have been done produced mixed results. (3)
Some studies show that treatment causes harm, others show no change, and still others show an improvement. After reviewing the literature on this, I’ve come to the following tentative conclusions:
- T4 is rarely, if ever, effective in Low T3 Syndrome and may even cause harm. This is probably due to the decreased conversion of T4 to T3 that is seen in chronic illness.
- T3 replacement has been shown to be consistently beneficial only in cardiac patients who’ve recently had surgery, heart failure or a transplant.
That said, I’ve heard anecdotal reports of improvement from people who have taken replacement T3 hormone for a condition called “Wilson’s Syndrome” (which does not exist in the scientific literature or according to any mainstream medical organizations). Wilson’s Syndrome refers to low basal body temperature and other nonspecific symptoms occurring in the presence of normal thyroid hormones.
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I’ll be the first to admit that “lack of evidence is not evidence against,” and as I mentioned earlier, there’s not a lot of research on the effectiveness of T4 and T3 replacement therapy in Low T3 Syndrome. It may be that as we look into this further, we’ll discover a role for thyroid hormone replacement in these conditions.
That said, I think caution is warranted.
And, if the changes seen in Low T3 Syndrome are a compensatory adaptation of the body in response to chronic illness, increasing T3 levels artificially may have undesirable effects.
In the majority of cases of Low T3 Syndrome, I think it’s preferable to identify the underlying cause and treat that. As I discussed in articles #3 and #4 in this series, those causes most often include infections, autoimmunity and inflammation.
Articles in this series:
- Low T3 Syndrome I: It’s Not About The Thyroid!
- Low T3 Syndrome II: Myths and Misconceptions
- Low T3 syndrome III: Inflammation Strikes Again
- Low T3 Syndrome IV: An Autoimmune Disease You’ve Never Heard Of?
- Low T3 syndrome V: Should It Be Treated With Thyroid Hormone?
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Thanks for explanation of all the T3s, except I mostly get low T3, not really low any of the others (total or free, etc).
I did a corticostim test in which they inject you with cortisol and put you in an extremely stressful situation to see if your body can respond to the stress, and I responded above and beyond by making lots and lots of cortisone. So that means no pituitary problem.
My endo is great and I have medicaid, so I can get more tests, but maybe, as you point out, there really is nothing they can do anyway, so they don’t bother.
So, I’m wondering, is low body temperature an indication of low t3 or not? (IE the whole Broda Barnes scenario.) Since low t3 is not from an ill thyroid but a lack of conversion, will low body temperature have any bearing on if a person should seek treatment or not? In other words, will having low t3 cause low body temps?
Hi Diane,
You ask is low body temps an indication of low T3 as in a causal effect, and no I do not believe that it is…however, the two things often happen together, although (I believe) are happening independently.
To explain. When the body is sick, for whatever reason, the main hub, the hypothalamus (which controls both of these things), will change our body’s set points.
Systemic low grade inflammation will cause the hypothalamus to set the body’s temp point lower…in the same way a bacterial infection or virus will cause it to set the body’s temp point higher (fever).
The underlying condition causing the low grade inflammation (just being sick) will cause the hypothalamus (independently, through use of different chemicals) change the body’s set point for T3 lower. It is not that the body is not converting it well…just that the body is not wanting more, per the hypothalamus’s instruction.
Both of these processes often occure together, although are happening seperately…and both are normal and natural and not in need of treatment (other than to treat the cause of the illness and underlying inflammation) as they will correct themselves on their own when the condition precident is removed.
Hope that helps clarify.
Yes, very helpful Faith. And, interesting.
I do have inflammation. My ferritin has been moderately elevated for at least a year. (250ish). It has been coming down (177 last check) as has a mildly elevated ALT. (mid 50’s and now normal at 22 last check.) But with what you’ve stated above, I wonder if Cynomel is the culprit, at least in part. I was quite ill Jan of 2013, I think it was EBV as I have high counts for an infection from sometime in the recent past. Huge fatigue and from blood work thought it was my thyroid, started Cynomel. I think I’ve started a vicious cycle here. I’m wondering if there is way to support the hypothalamus? Now I’m wondering about bone loss and my weight gain. UGH. I may need to wean off Cynomel.
Question is, how does one ever determine the cause of inflammation? It could be just about anything.
My ANA is normal. No Hashi’s.
Hi Diane,
Interesting re the high iron. In my own labs they commented (my iron is normal) that it could be elevated due to anemia of chronic illness. Apparently, illness raises iron levels.
It is often difficult to isolate what is causing what as it is usually due to complex interations. Oftentimes, the only or first odd labs we get are thyroid labs…so it makes sense to start treating it…when sometimes it is not the thyroid but something else.
I’d still reccommend the book…and a look at your diet precceding each change on the off chance foods are triggering the flip flop.
Hang in there, keep searching and you will eventually find your answers.
i dont believe there is something called hashi! its broken thyroid only…..nothing more, and you can get antibodies only when its in early stages, if you are in late stage of destruction there is no way antibodies will show up when all is destroyed allready….
so what happens you take hormons but thyroid got broken becasue of somethign else!! and you built up vitamin mineral defficiencies over the years, you can mask a lot of it with hormones….but long term the overdose of hormons will start giving you new issues
high ALT can be from too high t3!! yes my logic is staying close to physiological lvs in hormones is best approach..unless like Faith ….you have some special case…issue…which you may have but
high doses of t3 and those are all above 5 mcg…….can be culprit…
the same as taking 200mcg t4 its 2 x the physiological dose, taking 12 t3 is 2 x more…….it will mess with your t4 lvls…..t4 is good for something…..etc….unless you have some really good reason not to have it
since i wrote this i was reading some papers and now not sure anymore what physiological doses are….they may range from 4-10 mcg?
so i would say taking more then 10 mcg of t3 is going way above physiological lvls
would be nice that they finally say what are the physiological doses exactly of t3 is it 4-6 mcg or it is 6-10 mcg? anyone knows?
this is very nice explanation…..
but in my case my low ft3 came becasue i was thrown out of balance by taking too much t4 meds! i was on 150 mcg t4…my symptoms would not go away on t4 only what i should have been given is tiny amount of t3 when t4 started not to work properly…and my tsh was around 1.4 this was achieved even on 75 mcg doses…..
so above 100 mcg t4 there was very significant drop in my ft3
this is caused by hyperconversion of excesses of t4 into rt3! this is what i learnt and fits in with my lab data…..its so clear that 100 mcg t4 was probelm for me and those days i remember i got all of the symptoms like sweating, hair loss, and feeling hyper!! but eventually my body accomodated to it!!
amazing thing!
so low ft3 number in people who take hormons can be produced only by excess of t4….in my graph this is so vividly shown
About 10 years ago I started have issues with weight gain and feeling cold all the time. The cold is getting worse over time, the weight gain at this point seems to have leveled off at about 20 pound gain. Everyone I know has been bugging me constantly telling me I have a thyroid problem for many years. My TSH always is normal. I finally got some tests abroad (where I could afford them) and my T3 consisting turns out low are just at the low end of normal. I bought some cynomel on the internet and tried taking a tiny amount, but didn’t like the effects and quit. Still I am desperate to get warm. I tried the cynomel again this summer. I took approx .5 mcg two days in a row. The first day I felt warm. The second day I woke up at night with a terrible ringing in my ears, drenched in sweat, feeling just awful. At a certain point it felt like I was no longer inside the right half of my body (I kept touching it to make sure I could feel it to make sure I wasn’t have a stroke). I vowed I’d never touch cynomel again. Interestingly, over the next month or so I was generally warm, and sometimes hot. People thought I was having hot flashes. I also lost 10 pounds without trying to in any way, (this after 10 years of unsucessfully trying to lose weight). During this time of weight loss and heat, I had an appt with an endo doctor (I finally got on medicaid and could afford it). I really liked the doctor and mentioned that I felt like my thyroid had bounced back up (a similar thing had happened 4 years prior and I never understood why- this time I thought maybe it was the effect of the meds). He did many thousands of dollars of bloodwork which all turned out not just normal, but at the high end of normal. This did not surprise me given how I was feeling. Since then, in the past month or 2, I have gotten cold and started gaining the weight back. A more recent blood test still shows normal thyroid function. No one has tested my T3 since April because doctors consider it not important. Even when I ask for it and it is prescribed, the lab results give total T3 rather than T3. I asked the endo if it is the same thing and he said no. Since T3 doesn’t matter and all my other numbers are fine, I am considered fine. Yet I cannot go indoors in summer and cannot work because of the cold. Whatever was going on earlier in the summer, I want it back desperately. The doc said it could not have been the meds. I am negative for Hashimoto. What boosts my thyroid function and how do I get it to go back up again so I can feel well? I am desperate, so I am now putting a cynomel in my mouth every day and letting just a tiny bit dissolve. I have no adverse effects that I notice from this, but also am still cold. Why did it seemingly have a month-long effect before? Or what was it instead that boosted my thryoid function?
Hi Mare,
I am so sorry that you are going through all this. Although I don’t have an answer as to what is causing this, I can shed some light that may help you further your search.
Even though many people connect being cold and thyroid, it is in fact the hypothalamus that sets the body’s temp point. Even when we are sick, like with the flu, it is the hypothalamus that increases the body’s temp (fever) in order that e can make more white blood cells to fight it. I do know that inflammation will cause the hypothalamus to set the body’s core temp lower than normal. You did not mention if you have taken your temp when feeling cold all the time…if it is lower than normal, it is likely inflammation. The labs for that are C-Reactive Protien (CRP) and the SED Rate.
Systemic inflammation, even low grade, ironically can happen from too much T3. Although, usually it is that whatever underlying issue that is causing the inflammation will also cause the body to, naturally, lower T3 levels. This looks like, in labs, as normal TSH, normal T4 and either low normal or low T3. This will likely not be helped by supplementing because the body (the hypothalamus) has set the body’s level of T3 lower so the body will work to sustain that low level.
That said, taking T3, even when the body doesn’t want it…will become a problem if the liver is not clearing it like it should. Too high T3 can feel similar to too low and can even cause paradoxial weight gain…and, it can also cause bone loss.
Although it sounds to me like the beginings of a possible autoimmune condition (non-thyroid) wherein the bad periods cause inflammation and thus low body temps as well as the flip hot times…before covering that, my suggestion would be to consider any differences in your diet the week or two before either of the shifts on the off chance that food may be the precurser to the issue.
The main test for autoimmune is the ANA or FANA.
There is a good book on both how to identify and also how to help yourself if autoimmune may be the underlying issue. And again, I don’t mean that it is anything outright…but more subtle and just in the begining stages causing just low grade systemic inflammation. The book is Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms When My Lab Results Are Normal? by a Dr. K. He discuses how to identify which side of your immune system it may be as well as the foods that may be behind it.
Sorry I don’t have the answer, but hope any of this may help…I sure hope you find your answer.
Faith
Thanks, I will look into the tests you mentioned. My body temperature is generally around 97.6, but it varies. I’m cold all the time, whether my body temp is low or not. Recently the tests that I had that turned out off were low MCHC, low MPV, low eosinophils, low basophils, high immature grans, high lymph absolute, high mono absolute, high immature grans abs. Since I had just finished a low-grade corticosteriod treatment for back pain, I assumed that is what affected those test results.
Also, I am confused as to what the difference is between T3,, total T3, Free T3, and uptake of T3. It is my T3, and occasionally my total T3 that are low, not the others.
Thanks!
Hi Mare,
To help clear up the confusion re T3/TT3/FT3…in general, we make T4 (1 thyroid 4 iodine) the storage form of thyroid hormone…and we convert T4 into T3 (1 thyroid 3 iodine) which is what fits into the receptors cleaving the 3 iodine in the process. In order to preserve both T4 and T3 longer, they temporarily bind to carrier proteins…while bound to these proteins they are not-usable. TT4 and TT3 refers to a count of all bound and unbound T4 and T3. FT4 and FT3 refers to only a count of unbound and ready to use T4 and T3. However, I have yet to hear of anyone with an issue of too little or too much protein binding or protein binding being an issue. That said, to further compound the T3 issue, there is also RT3 or Reverse T3, which we normally make some of and is not-usable. When they do a TT3, they are also counting RT3. There is no test that just counts bound and unbound T3 without the RT3…so this is why doctors and patients prefer the FT3 test.
The important thing to know is that just because someone may be low on FT3, they may have plenty protein bound T3 that the body can readily unbind and use at a moments notice…and thus the test can and often does give a very false impression of a person’s T3 level. In my opinion, it is best to draw a baseline of TT3, FT3, and RT3 in order to see what your particular body is doing. High RT3 will throw off TT3…but if RT3 is within normal range, then TT3 is a better way to see what your levels are. Although, you have low TT3 with normal T4 and TSH shows a true conversion issue…the question is why…as in, are you truly failing to convert or is your body converting less on purpose? One of the most common reasons that a body re-sets our set point is because we have some underlying illness going on…and in these cases, it is not a thyroid issue (as it will correct itself), but a side effect of being sick. And, in actuality, it is the hypothalamus that sets that base point.
Running cold is a sign of hypothalamus involvement…whether from low grade systemic inflammation or other illness process. Like Chris suggests in this article (that we are posting under) the body just sort of does this when we are sick…and when the illness resolves, the weird settings clear up on their own.
There is no known way to support the hypothalamus…however, all the standard advice on lowering body inflammation could help. Doctor’s do not treat hypothalamic issues…nor do they often test for it…I personally believe that they have no clue how to deal with it. No one on the internet (providers included, author of this article included) seem to break it down like this despite having learned this in medical school. If you want to pursue it, a cursory look at the Wiki’s on both the hypothalamus and pituitary will yield the relevant hormones that could be tested. I am told it is a stimulation test that only endocrine doctors can run…and that they don’t like running them.
Hope that helps. 🙂
Mark-
Yes, snpedia, and also reading research studies like you mention above. There are several other snps that have been studied but the two I mentioned above seem to be the most important ones, so far. ( I tend to second guess myself, afraid I’m not determining the correct reading. Sometimes the ‘orientation’ of the snps are flipped and though I think I know how to read them I still wonder if I’m reading them correctly at times. )
Thanks for the great tip on how to try and take the t3. That would make a lot of sense. I’m now wondering if the t3 has added to my inflammation? Also, I think I upped it too much, too quickly and I didn’t give my body time to adjust.
= feeling crappy.
Glad you figured out your snps!
I compiled an analysis of all five SNPs with supporting research documentation: https://app.box.com/s/vb2ck4vvfe13hoaer0wo
Maybe you can glean some helpful info from it. So from your research, SNPs rs2235544 and rs11206244 are the most significant then? If so, then I can surmise the argument is that I sway more toward being a hyper-converter of T4 to T3.
Great research everyone and thanks for sharing.
I don’t have much to add, other than to say feeling poorly on T3 is usally a sign you have too much…and that it can, eeriely, feel similar to having too little.
As to what the genes mean, I would think that this is just a map of how your body converts…that said, if you were a super converter, you would have chronic low T4 because it is over converting it…similar to the Vitamin D Reversal Pattern where a person has chronically low storage D (25,D) and normal to high active D (1,25 D). The other signs of over-conversion would be low TSH.
I think the pertinent point that is being missed is why some peoples body’s “set point” for T3 need is lower than the standard. The main reason there seems to be for this is some other underlying illness and that for all practical reasons the body (despite the low T3) is acting normally and doesn’t need to be messed with. Also demonstrated by when messed with (adding t4 or t3) it does worse. Sometimes, the body knows better than us. *shrugs*
I have to totally agree with you Faith. We often try and fix a ‘broken’ system in the body by taking and doing all manner of things. I’ve found supplements push the body chemistry, not always in the best direction. The human body is wonderfully created to fight for health, homeostasis. And, unless there is a disease process going on that it cannot overcome, often time is the best nutrient.
Mark- Thanks for the great document. I’m still checking and reading as time permits. I did read on a few studies the two snps I mentioned are the main ones. Although, I suppose another researcher could have a differing opinion. Thanks again for putting this all together. I downloaded it and will spend some more time researching it all. Also, I noticed the last article on thyroid and depression. I’ve definitely had that, especially when the winter days are so short. I’ve read more thyroid med is needed in the winter months and personally, I’d say I think this is true.
Thanks for the post above, Faith. I’d been feeling tired and recently upped my t3 from 37.5mcg/day to 50mcg/day. Now, I’m feeling even worse. Maybe I need to take it the other direction. I would love to not take any thyroid.
Chris, my question to you concerns the deiodinase enzyme snps. I am homozygous for rs2235544 A/A and rs11206244 T/T. From the bit of reading I’ve done, these are two of the main snps associated with fT4/fT3 conversion. In the past when tested I’m always on the low end of normal for fT3. Mid level for fT4. Does this necessarily mean that I am not able to convert well due to these polymorphisms? Looking back, I’ve dealt with ‘thyroid type’ symptoms since my mid-20’s. Early 60’s now.
Although, from your article, I’m wondering if my problem might be more related to inflammation. Elevated ferritin with normal iron levels and elevated HSCRP. Sed rate normal. I have high markers for EBV virus, past infection. Might this be the culprit for my inflammation?
Thanks, Diane
Hi Diane,
I’m also low or low normal on fT3 while mid-range for fT4. I tried taking a very low dose of T3 and felt much worse.
In my case, I *think* the reason that I’m not converting T4 to T3 is that I have ferroportin-loss-of-function disease, the second most common type of genetic hemochromatosis (aka iron overload disorder.) Ferroportin LOF is characterized by high ferritin and low or normal transferrin saturation, with different tissue types getting overloaded than with regular HFE hemachromatosis. There’s a good summary on iron overload disorders from the NEJM posted here: http://www.trinity.edu/rblyston/documents/JAMPjanReading/Fleming2012.pdf
Fleming RE, Ponka P. Iron overload in human disease. N Engl J Med. 2012 Jan 26;366(4):348-59.
Inflammation does put up both CRP and ferritin – but if your ferritin is a lot higher than can be explained by your CRP, as you can see by the flow chart in the NEJM article, you might want to ask your doctor about ruling out ferroportin LOF disease. (The one upside of ferroportin disease is that it is treatable with bleeding to get rid of the extra iron, although people with ferroportin LOF often end up having to be bled less often so they don’t get anemic. Still, with patience and perseverance, we get “de-iron’ed” in the end!)
Ferroportin disease isn’t that common, but it’s often missed because the transferrin saturation doesn’t go up until the ferritin is very, very high.
Just in case this could be a helpful clue for you –
Gillian
Gillian,
Thank you for the response and input. Appreciate it. I have looked over my snps for possible HH but haven’t found that I have any snps, even heterozygous.
I did find it good that my most recent blood work showed my ferritin levels lowering from mid 250’s to 177. But, even better my ALT enzyme had been in mid to upper 50’s for a year or more. This time, very normal at 22! So, I’m heading in the right direction. With normal iron TIBC, UBIC and % sat, I do think it’s inflammation that’s been causing the elevated numbers.
Great that you were able to find out what was occurring with you. And, especially that it’s fixable!
Thanks again….Diane
Diane – Wanted to commend you for making this discovery of your +/+ SNPs. I am glad I just happened to read this post in my inbox. I also use 23andMe raw data quite frequently. How did you pinpoint these specific deiodinase SNPs? Was it from somewhere you read or did you run search on SNPedia? In my case, I was mistaken all along, thinking (assuming) I had a conversion block when in fact I do not (I am -/-); in other words, I am a hyper-converter, therefore, the NDT and T3 I’ve been taking along may have been making me worse! This is further supported by the fact that the one time I trialed T4 only for a month, I converted just fine, my T4 dropped as did my rT3 which is what’s supposed to happen, and my TSH was <1.0 for the first time ever, and my FT3:RT3 ratio was 67, but I didn't stick with it because everything in the alternative community that I followed told me T4 is "evil" and I need to run back to T3! I would think T3 would be the remedy for you since you're an under-converter [yes, you have a problem converting based on the research – see risk allele "A"" http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs2235544%5D
Strange why you felt worse. But maybe not, as speaking of inflammation, I was told by a well-respected doc some time back that T3 up-regulates immunity and can cause inflammation, especially if it is taken on an empty stomach (and 80% of our immune system is in our gut). His advice: take T3 with food since 95% of it is absorbed regardless. Perhaps that will help.
Oops – looks like there are other SNPs in this equation: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21715540?dopt=Abstract
Turns out I have a mixed risk after all. Most of my deiodonase enzymes are functional, but one isn’t and the other 50%. Mixed T3/T4 with emphasis on T4 may be the best way to go.
hello there,
what is your ft4 to ft3 ratio in a blood?
i think one can only look at that ratio before taking meds and target that sort of lvl later! my ratio was 3.4 before meds, when i started taking t4 it went to 4 and dropped below 4 and i was feeling great!…my doc nevertheless chased TSH and after 100mcg t4 i ended up dissbalanced! my ft4 to ft3 ratio in blood jumped to 5.5!! which is soo much worse then should be my TSH was regulated well dropped below 1
that beeing said i think best is to keep it above 1 slightly 1.4 maybe….below 1 is maybe overdose…..
so after taking 150mcg t 4 for a year and having low ft3 becasue of dissbalance i chnaged to 100+3 mcg and my brain fog lifted but after 3 weeks i felt hypo symptoms back and my TSH jumped from 1 to 2.22 in 30 days…
i am trying 100+6 now, but from this lower dose 100+3 i got my lymph nodules inflamed….i hope this did not come from 3 mcgt 3 but becasue of TSH that moved to 2.22
and y ft4 to ft3 ratio dropped to 4.5 which is good….and i aim for it to drop below 4! since my natural ratio was 3.4
it is 13th day i am on combination therapy! taking 100mcg t4 +25mcg t3, i made a switch in 1 day from 150mcg t4, now not too sure if thats the perfect way to do it, but have learnt various things in the process….
finally think i know where panick attacks come from, from drop in t3 lvls…body keeps t3 very stable….and on 11th day i took only 19mcg t3+ 75mcg t4 in the morning and was feeling sick all day long….
i looked up my old lab test 2007-2009. and it shows how my ferritin was 6 and minimum was 30 🙂 so seeing ferritin in 2014 at 34 is not that bad thing ? :)…i was blaming it on low ferritin, that probably has something to do with conversion process from ft4 to ft3 since it stood better then when i was very low in ferritin…..but not so much worse as it got when i was on 150mcg t4
but adding t3 in my body i realized that hormone plays important role for heart!, for mood and energy and brain fog…feeling tired has the most to do with heart not beeing at its best…..this is my feeling…..i.e. with low ft3 …and even the slightest chnage in ft3 hormone is able to trigger panick attack, that is designed instead of electro shock for heart….so hypo people use a lot their adrenals…instead of ft3!
i also noticed when TSH drops , also does theconversion of t4 to t3 and that total body production of both hormons stands at around 100 mcg t4+ 30mcg t3…..which is 3.33 ratio…and before i was medicating hypothiroid my ratio stood at 3.41 i dont think this is coincidence only
and when i reached 100mcg t4 intake in my boody(at 150 t4 tablets, since i absorbed probably 70% of it taking it immediately before clacium breakfast 🙂 my TSH remained supressed below or at 1…and ft3 fell to low border of the range…….
and i feel so sad now….casue not sure if this combination therapy will work for me, its creating me wolf hunger and if i dont eat exactly 5-6 hours after breakfast i get shaky and dizzy and like i will die out of hunger and that creats perfect situation for a panick attack …..but in general my mood was better, i was euphoric how energetic i was, but the last 2 days when i had panick attack due to messing around the dose….i got dissheartened…and today feelign tired all day long…really tired….my adrenals probably exhausted…..
and why i messed around the therapy becasue i was afraid its too much too soon, and my heart is under too much effort since i had sensations around chest area and i started reading…..
do you think i will be fine? and it was not that big deal to switch from 150t4 to 100+25 combo?…..
one day i did sport and i noticed that exhausted me ..but i was energetic and could do it much easier then before, just that hungar is annoying…i dont eat overall much more..probably about the same?……but today i feel depressed…cause tired and its 13th day…2 days ago i messed the dose so this took me out of balance…today was managable but i am afraid now..and not relaxed..and thinking…and just so so tired…:(
thank you!!! for lsitening and maybe some word of encouragment :))
Hi Ivy,
Well I applaud you for trying things and keeping careful track of how you feel.
The feeling shakey when you don’t eat IS adrenals…that is the one sure sign. Unlike everyone else, I feel better when I don’t eat.
Too much T3 will make your heart beat funny…which could easily set off a panic attack. If I remember, you did not do well on T3??? If not, then you do not want to take a big dose all at once…it doesn’t act like T4…and the fact that you get the heart issue and panic suggests that your body is not clearing away the excess T3 that well. For what it is worth, I only take T3…but I have to take it 10-12 times a day. My body clears it really well.
Both too much and too little T3 feels pretty much the same…tired, yuk feeling. The difference between the two, I have found, is too little makes you sad…and too much gives you the weird heart racing thing.
Take heart, everyone is different in their need for thyroid hormone…and what works for one does not work for another. Keep trying things, eventually you will find what works best for you.
Hang in there. 🙂
hello Faith, i am back with new info 🙂
i read dr Blanchard book, this has been somehting like an eye opener for me….
you know i have 16 data points from 16 measurments of my hormons through 3 years time….and i noticed my TSH moves up in the summer, i found explanation for this in the book…sor tof and i added my own explanation to it, it must be connected to vitamin D! …i remember all cells in the body have receptors for 2 things, vitamin D and thyroid!! this is not just coincidence
and research showed much higher TSH seasonal variations in subclinical then euthyroid patients so i assume it can go as high as 1….
so i set new target for myself i will target my winter TSH 1,4 so that summer goes to 2.4 like it did last summer
i was on t4 only for 3 years but slightly increased to 150, where i spent 1 year this supressed my TSH to below 1, and symptom of low energy stay there
so this is my big conclusion now: overdosing masks the underlying problem each of us have…i know malnutrition is great trigger to develop thyroid probelmS! and my ferritin beeing low i can not feel more energetic on the borderline ferritin 🙂 so no matter how much hormons i throw in it wont do me good, and i was clearly overdosed on 150 t4! and then
i took 100 t4 +25 t3!! oh boy this was one of the worst nightmares so far in my life!!!! i was having starvation hungar! that threw me into panick attacks! i was fighting for my life, eating like crazy!! and euphoria and disspair were swaping through the day my BP went to 140 over 80 and heart rate 74 always and 80 sometimes…..and my usual HR is 63!….and bloos pressur enever higher then 125…..
then i dropped to 100+3 mcg t3 only it felt great , soo good for 3 weeks then i started noticing huge dropp in t4….i did not notice before …t4 is slow worker…so i upped to 135 10 days during my PMS ….now 100 for 2 days…i plan to keep that dr Blanchard approach cause i was amazed how many things he explained well in the book, and
the most improtant take is t3 in very small doses lifted my brain fog!! and improved my mood!! i still have eneryg problems, am only like 35 days into it…..so too early to tell, and not perfect yet….becasue i think my thyroid supressed for some time now…and must start working again…..
so i was getting old symptoms back , i hate it 🙂 like lyphatic nodules becoming bigger, and synus sensitivity…but on the other hand PMS was nonexistant almost!! and no headaches and finally not feeling so crazy hungry! omg what a rollecoaster t3 is, 25 mcg t3 affected even my short term memory!! can you believe it?
Hi Everyone,
All the comments are running together in my mind (sorry about that), so I am just going to make a more blanket response here (hope you don’t mind).
Yes, it can be very difficult to get doctors to see the logic in things, I think we are all in the same situation with that.
I think it is great that we are all reading and trying things, even if we later find out those things don’t work. I try to post what I learn about things because so many of those things are costly and a lot of people do not have the money to waste on what doesn’t work.
I don’t know what to say about the iron issue…I am very chronically hypo, but my all my various iron levels are fine. The B12 issue, I believe, is a whole different story that I don’t believe anyon has gotten to the point of even formulating the question of why is it that people who are struggling with their health do soooo much better on B12? For me it seems like a breakdown in my ability to use my stores of it…since my levels are also fine.
The research is hopelessly behind, in my opinion…because all the B12 work is on the autoimmune and digestive issues of not having enough “intrinsic factor” to process it from food…but I test fine on those tests too. When I take B12, I am fine for about 4 hours and then I need more. Why is this? I have no idea. It also helps my kids and my mom. Nothing I have seen in all the cycles (like the methyl cycle) points to the process by which we process and use B12 so I have no idea.
I agree, I think we all know what will work for us…I honor that part of people that knows this stuff.
Regarding Vit D…sunlight is my best choice. Back before I researched it, I got Borage Oil (from a plant) and Flax Seed Oil…I think for Vit D, deffinitely for the essential fats. There is a really great video on YouTube about mixing Falx Seed Oil, Flax Seeds, and Cottage Cheese…the Budwig Protocal. This mixture renders the fat water soluable. I was intrigued by this because I don’t digest fats well. The Cottage Cheese they mention is really very sour…if you like sour, go for it. I ended up having to use regular Cottage Cheese, because the other was just too sour for me. With the regular Cottage Cheese, it could be a replacement for cream cheese on a bagel or something. In the end, I just cannot do dairy products so I had to stop.
This is a great group of people. 🙂
was searching through the web yesterday, and reading researches on the ferritin , b12 and folate and iron metabolism…..
there is one hormone that is called hepcidin, it is in the liver, and it regulates complete metabolism of the iron, i noticed many hypo people have problem with low iron and/or b12! and this puzzles me why this is not addressed together? (some studies on mices showed that combined therapy of iron +t4 gave better results then taking just on or the other on treating iron lvls)
It seems that body doesnt want to absorb iron from the food if there is low grade chronic inflamation going on…and that kind of inflamation can be caused by exercising…..and i remember i was always active even though my body was depleted with everything (so body with hypo people can register walking as exercising too if its more then it can do??)….
iron is directly correlated to oxidative metabolism, which is again affected by hypothrioid condition….so probably body concludes there is no reason to uptake more iron if the oxidative metabolism will just make the body weaker….becasue not sufficient hormones to keep it going??
this is just my theory…but bottom line is…..when one finds hypo problem should check ferritin level and prescribe both things together, if ferritin is not improving this means thyroid hormones are not balanced enough??
this was my case at least, my ferritin could never improve….
so curious to see if on better therapy after 1-2 years my iron gets fixed …….my serum b12 is good, did not measure folate (since i think there may be false rsults).
Also not enough copper, zink can influence iron absorption..but i watch my diet for the last 6 years….was bombing myself with iron rich food :)…eat bluebrrries every single day now 🙂 meat etc…so it my feleing the body doesnt want to absorb more! :), i tried with more stomach acid too, but to na avail……iron is absorbed in duodenum 1-2mg per day only and that same amount is wasted every day too
if anyone has any other clue….t3 may be the missing link, becasue i was on t4 therapy only…so my ferriting tells my thyroid therapy maybe not ok my latest feritin lab was 30( 30-300 is lab range 🙂 maximum i saw is 34 in me
Dear Gilian thank you so much for your effort, appreciate it.this is great community here very informative, but
I dont believe in h.pylory…its something so prevalent in the population, but low ferritin and hypo go so well together, my serum b12 is high, so if it was for pylory i would be low in b12 too, i think it has something to do with metabolism, and they did not investigate it yet, they dont know what function ferritin has, thats what i read today……
Helicobacter, i read may even have some postive effect in our bodies! It so ething co pletely new, i put it into same category as gut bacteria, something thats not been researched at all, and not used in healing at all, h.p. can cause problems in some people i know thta, i have read many things, and no way i would be taking 2 antibiotics and proton pump inhibnitor that makes me sick person,to get h.p. next time i go for a coffee:-)
I do take a lot of calcium, eat lots of milk products, but dont drink coffee , tea:-) …and was supplementing iron for years..but was never on proper thyroid medication, i did notice that my ferritin dropps immediately if i dont supplement for 1.5 months….and it is connected to low ft3 lvls and hair losss……so i was thinking there is something to it……am very curious if on this new balanced therapy that includes100t4+ 25 t3 i will maybe move that ferritin for the first time in 15 years up:-) ….then i will know its closely connected to thyroid…..
But i am so so surprised that they did not establish explanation between low ferritin, low b12 and hypothiroidism…..
Yes i just learnt today how those trace elements must all be inbalance i never supplemented anything beside iron, so this may well created some imbalances but i doubt it can be so that i prevented me from creating more ferritin…..
Have no idea, but i never had any stomach problems in my life……i did develop hypochloridia …which i did not know, but every summer i would be feeling like vommiting for a month……even on t4 only it improved! Now 5 days taking combined and i think t3 is of great help there…and i will turn that metabolism higher……..
Yes like faith said..maybe its in my genese something that prevents me from creating more ferritin..but i dont know what could help there….i did notice i have higher bilirubin in my blood , but slightly, they told me i have gilbert syndrome, so i become a bit yellowish if i fast…nothingnserious about it 5 of people have it…but this is some liver, blood, metabolism connection, i feel is not investigated at all??
So little of really good infor tion found…did you ever find the research on t4 to t3 ratio? Some topics are deliberately avoided i think, and its only about money, its also not in docs interwt to fix us with one tablet so we wont be cpming for more checkups!!! My doc was so trying hard to put me off from combined therapy and i insisted on pure logic:-) …….just freakin amazing, i wish i could take him to court…..but in my country how could i explain that i was misstreated when not even in the USA you can prove misstreatment with t4 only
Oops, forgot to mention that besides reducing iron absorption, H. pylori infection of the stomach can also reduce absorption of B12 and some other vitamins –
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22105725
Minerva Gastroenterol Dietol. 2011 Dec;57(4):369-77.
Nutritional aspects of Helicobacter pylori infection.
Vitale G1, Barbaro F, Ianiro G, Cesario V, Gasbarrini G, Franceschi F, Gasbarrini A.
1Internal Medicine Department, Catholic University of the Sacred Heart, Gemelli Hospital, Rome, Italy. [email protected]
Abstract
H. pylori is a gram-negative pathogen, etiologically associated with atrophic and non-atrophic gastritis, peptic ulcer, primary gastric B-cell lymphoma and gastric carcinoma. Several observations demonstrated a correlation between H. pylori and malabsorption of essential nutrients; epidemiological studies have shown an association between H. pylori infection and iron deficiency anemia, while the absorption of some vitamins such as vitamin B12, vitamin A, vitamin C, folic acid and Vitamin E may be affected by the infection. The main mechanism related to malabsorption of this components is the modified intragastric pH (hypo – achlorhydria) due to H. pylori infection. Moreover H. pylori is also able to determine a modification of gastrointestinal hormones by reducing plasma levels of ghrelin and increasing those of leptin and gastrin, thus affecting appetite and promoting the occurrence of dyspeptic symptoms. On the other hand, H. pylori eradication has been shown to improve serum level of iron and vitamin B12, has some effects on Vitamin A and Vitamin E absorption and has a late effects on ghrelin levels. As a consequence of those effects, H. pylori is also associated with childhood malnutrition in developing countries either for the occurrence of malabsorption or for an increased susceptibility to enteric infections caused by hypochlorhydria.
and one question for you faith pls
regarding glutathoine……since i started having grey hair in my 30s , rather earely i read this may be a sign of some problem with that glutathoine….
what do you supplement for that problem?…..
is l glutamine doing anything helpful to it?
and what do you think of ashwaganda, i am confused since i have hashi and some say its great thing and on one powder i bought it says WARNING its not for hypothiorid people…..
thank you very much! i love reading from you
Milk thistle has glutathoine in it, I think it may be why it’s a great liver herb. I take it in an extract as I think the powders/pill/tablets arent as effective.
Ashwaganda stimulates the adrenals. If you’re wired and tired already this will make you worse. You have to get rid of the stress, emotional but also BODY stress—inflammation, illnesses etc and then heal the adrenals.
hello Helene,
thank you very much!!
BUT i dont know why then they mention this ashwaganda everywhere around hashimoto issues..i bought it :(( so another money spent for no reason uff….
i am starting to believe its the liver that needs some support not just the gut, everyone is so much obsessing with gut, becasue it looks like a black box….and i remember when i did not know anything , and read no books intuitively i thought i may have some liver problem, becasue i had chronic synus problems, and i heard from one holistic doc who is very very good, he is fixing knees, that synus problems point to liver problem…and i was taking some herbs in form of tablets for synus, when i read up active ingredients of those pills, they were all good for the liver!! and these pills helped me significantly for my synus problems (this was no 1 pills in germany for synus problems, Synupret forte)
DrBerg.com is an ND who explains alot of this kind of talk. He’s where I learned about ashwangda. He tried to dispel alot of the common misconceptions adn confusions about health out there. LOTS of free info on his site. He’s in Virginia in the USA.
amazing before i read anything i was thinking to take that thing for my liver that milk thistle, then someone told me i dont need it :)…..i think we all know intuitively what we may need!……i connected my liver to my synus problems, and basically i think liver is really essential and so far noone put that much importance to it, all are just focusing on gut, and gut permeability which i think is stretched idea…i dont believe this is source of autoimune disease…..but rather consequence, that by beeing ill you become more sensitive to certain foods……ofcourse eating healthy is crucial, just me going gluten free , did nothing for better conversion from t4 to t3 🙂 it may even made it worse :)….becasue i was eating more protein, fats…….i do follow the same diet now and is nice! but only becasue i fixed my hormonal therapy am taking close to that ideal ratio of 3.5 🙂 taking 100mcg t4+ 25 mcg t3
Hi Ivy,
Gray hair, esp early, is generally a sign of copper def.
Regarding glutathione…and L-Glutamine…
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Glutamine makes Glutamate…which turns activity on. Eventually, Glutamate makes GABA, which turns activity off. I make way too much Glutamate (why my tissues tighten up) and not enough GABA. How it works is this:
A.1. Glutamate + the enzyme L-Glutamic Acid Decarboxylase = GABA
B.1.a. GABA + the enzyme 4-AminoButyrate Transaminase (along with active B6) = Succinate Semialdehyde
B.1.b. Succinate Semialdehyde + the enzyme Succinate Semialdehyde Dehydrogenase (via the Citric Acid Cycle) = the enzyme Glutamate Synthase
B.1.c. Glutamate Synthase then makes Glutamate
And the cycle continues ad infinitum.
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
On the other hand, how we make Glutathione is this:
In short, Cysteine (which is what they would give you to help you make Glutathione, only mine is already high) makes Taurine and Glutathione (both low in me). How it does so is this:
1. Cysteine (mine is high) + Glutamate (mine is also high) via the enzyme y-GlutamlCysteine Synthetase = y-GlutamlCysteine
2. y-GlutamlCysteine + the enzyme Glutathion Synetase = Glutathione
As I mentioned, they give you Cysteine to help make Glutathione…and due to my issues, this is where I have to accept that there are so many more processes involved than even the experts understand…Cysteine would make me sick, as would more Glutamate…my body is clearly trying very hard to make Glutathione. This is why it appears blind to just tell people to take something for something when they don’t understand the process involved.
.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Since Cysteine (mine high) also makes Taurine (mine low)… I clearly have a breakdown in those enzymes. Whether that is genetic (if so, they don’t know which genes (yet)), or some other reason…like my body slowly breaking itself down due to my being sick, it is hard to say. It is equally hard to say whether taking Taurine (and/or Glutathione if we could) would solve my health issues, or merely cover a deeper process going on.
I am a firm believer in finding out the actual process things work by, and not just taking what someone who made a website or wrote a book said, because when you can understand the process…things just become visible that were not before…and the path to our health, if it exists, also becomes visable…like, for me, taking taurine. Nowhere in my defects (so very little is known about them anyways) would it suggest that I would not make taurine or glutathione…and yet, labs show that I am not…for me, I put my trust more in the labs that trending notions. That is not to say I didn’t try, I did…just that it wasn’t it.
Hope that helps. 🙂
oh thank you very much!!! ,
i did notice recently i can not stop eating dark chocolate i know it is rich in copper…..
i have good vitamin b12 in my blood, and yet i am not sure if that is good or not, maybe its only in the blood….and not beeing used properly, so me supplementing b12 i did not feel anything, usually when something is really defficiant helpful i notice it for the 1st tablet…….
i can totaly understand how these docs make wrong conclusions…..it doesnt surprise me at all….
in a way if you ask me i think they know too little!! and this surprises me so so soooo much, that i can not understand where they spend years and years of learning, some things were obvious to me in few months after started reading……i am especially pissed at study who made t4 beeing recommended as 1st therapy
thank you very much for this explanation of the process, which is part of methylation process…i never took time to investigate it….just went on to try everything other people recommend 🙂 so i bought myself that powder lol, and i was resisting a long time to it…and then i do sports so it may help me some, but since i was on t4 my muscles did grow somewhat…so am not that very sick person…..but still i know now its all about chemistry and that metabolic process that is in the core of life………
thank you very much dear Faith!
The thing is paying for these labs is cost-prohibitive. You don’t want to know the convoluted way I went to prove my T3 was horribly low. My doctor was then basically forced to give me the cytomel, which the ins had to pay for due to the lab documentation. She would have never tested for it though–just the T4.
Labs would be nice. Most ppl just have to research, guess and try. The selenium actually seems to be helping me. But I’ll just have to see.
hello Helene, tell me about it 🙂
i came with 2 charts to my doc, which i am paying extra, so private insurance(although i have right to national insurance), to ask to give me combined therapy t4+t3, i just followed the logic, before i started medication with t4 only i was having 3.5 ratio of ft4 to ft3 in my blood, 3 years after that ratio jumped to 6, becaue my ft3 went lower then it was without medications…….in a way i lost faith in those docs, i think they are severely undereducated, and just lack too much logic.
it is beyond me that recommended therapy for hypo people is t4 only! and they dont check ft3 at all
oh it just dawned on me….i was supplementing iron for years without any pause, so this may lead to my copper defficiency? i know i am eating cashew for years, and i eat all bag in 2 days….recently noticed i love dark chocolate……
i could never get such an advice from doctor, and why i can not build up my ferritin no clue to that, and many hypo people suffer with either low ferritin or low b12…but nowhere did i find my case persistent low ferritin despite iron supplements…..maybe i was missing copper in the equasion….and docs told me just about vitamin c , b complex to take with iron
copper, iron , zink they all have some part in glutathione production, and i read today what you all probably know that taurine is put into energy drinks!…that taurine has many beneficial effects! i think i notice it in that supplement i take there is 200mg of it in it gives energy!
Hi Ivy,
H. pylori infection of the stomach can cause low iron (which will result in ferritin being low when there isn’t any inflammation) even though someone is taking iron (see a couple of links and article abstracts on H pylori vs. iron deficiency at the end.)
Iron absorption will also be reduced when iron-containing foods (or supplements) are taken with things like calcium, zinc, magnesium, copper, tea, coffee, etc. (There’s a nice discussion at http://www.parentingscience.com/iron-absorption.html that might be helpful.)
Taking too much zinc can also cause copper deficiency, as noted in this handout from the UK http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/zinc-deficiency-excess-and-supplementation . It works the other way, too – e.g., from http://web.mit.edu/athletics/sportsmedicine/wcrminerals.html : “High intakes of calcium, iron and copper may also limit zinc absorption.”
And here are the H. pylori vs. iron deficiency article abstracts, in case they are helpful –
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23316928
Helicobacter. 2013 Jun;18(3):222-8. Epub 2013 Jan 15.
The effect of Helicobacter pylori infection on iron stores and iron deficiency in urban Alaska Native adults.
Miernyk K1, Bruden D, Zanis C, McMahon B, Sacco F, Hennessy T, Parkinson A, Bruce M.
Abstract
BACKGROUND: Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori) infection has been correlated with low serum ferritin and iron deficiency. As a secondary analysis of a study of H. pylori reinfection, we investigated the association of H. pylori infection and the effect of its eradication on serum ferritin and iron deficiency.
METHODS: Alaska Native adults undergoing esophagogastroduodenoscopy had sera collected and a (13) C urea breath test (UBT) was performed. Those H. pylori positive were treated with an antibiotic regimen; those who tested negative 2 months after treatment were evaluated at 4, 6, 12, and 24 months by UBT and serum ferritin with an immunoradiometric assay. We excluded persons from further analysis if they were prescribed iron by their provider.
RESULTS: We measured serum ferritin for 241 persons; 121/241 were H. pylori positive. The geometric mean ferritin (GMF) for persons with and without H. pylori infection was 37 μg/L and 50 μg/L, respectively (p = .04). At enrollment, 19/121 H. pylori-positive persons had iron deficiency compared with 8/120 H. pylori negative (p = .02). Among 66 persons tested at 24 months, the GMF was higher at 24 months (49.6 μg/L) versus enrollment (36.5 μg/L; p = .02). Six of 11 persons with iron deficiency at enrollment no longer had iron deficiency and had a higher GMF (p = .02) 24 months after treatment.
CONCLUSIONS: H. pylori infection was correlated with lower serum ferritin and iron deficiency. After H. pylori eradication, serum ferritin increased and approximately half of persons resolved their iron deficiency. Testing for H. pylori infection and subsequent treatment of those positive could be considered in persons with unexplained iron deficiency.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20201716
Scand J Gastroenterol. 2010 Jun;45(6):665-76.
Iron deficiency anemia in Helicobacter pylori infection: meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials.
Yuan W1, Li Yumin, Yang Kehu, Ma Bin, Guan Quanlin, Wang D, Yang L.
Abstract
BACKGROUND: Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori) infection and iron deficiency anemia are prevalent in disadvantaged populations worldwide. The benefit of H. pylori eradiation for iron deficiency anemia has been extensively studied, but data are still equivocal.
METHODS: A search in The Cochrane Library, PUBMED, EMBASE, EBM Review databases, Science Citation Index Expanded, and CMB (Chinese Biomedical Literature Database) was performed. Randomized controlled trials (RCTs) comparing anti-H. pylori plus oral iron to oral iron alone for the iron deficiency patients in whom H. pylori was positive were selected for meta-analysis. Reviev Manager 5.0 software was used for the performance of meta-analysis.
RESULTS: Sixteen randomized controlled trials totaling 956 patients were included. The meta-analysis showed that the difference from baseline to endpoint of hemoglobin (Hb), serum iron (SI), and serum ferritin (SF) was statistically significantly different between anti-H. pylori treatment plus oral iron and oral iron alone (SMD, Hb 1.48; 95% CI, 0.96, 2.00; p < 0.00001; SI 1.15; 95% CI, 0.87, 1.43; p < 0.00001; SF 1.84; 95% CI, 1.20, 2.48; p < 0.00001, respectively).
CONCLUSIONS: Our study suggests that treatment of H. pylori infection could be effective in improving anemia and iron statue in IDA patients infected by H. pylori, particularly in patients with moderate or severe anemia.
Just chiming in with my experience. Tried cytomel for 6 mos. Did NOTHING. Tried it again 6 mos later. This time tried for a year. Did NOTHING. Used 10 mcg. Tried using 15mcg but got palpitations. At the end was down to 5mcg a day as my numbers were “normal”. Well honey, they ain’t In Range for MY BODY. Then I had my levels tested again about 6 mos later when all T3 out of my system…my RT3 is 21 and my T3 is 2.2? Isn’t that a horrible ratio?
Would love to try the Wilson’s protocol but have no money to pay for it.
Am trying all sorts of diet modification for about 6 mos now but nothing works. Havent lost a pound in almost 3 mos now.
Hi Hélène,
Thanks for sharing your experience. You sound like you have been doing some research. My two bits is this, and I am sorry if it comes off poorly, but the ratio notion is purely made up. However, I don’t want to just say that without telling you why.
As someone who has an RT3 issue, and by that I mean that whenever I am on T4 (I don’t have a thyroid), my RT3 levels skyrocket. I have never been on T4 longer than 6 months, however, my RT3 levels have been upwards of 180 points over range. At about 100 points over range I start collapsing, I assume from being so hypo. So my doctors have me on T3 only. In trying to solve my own issue, I have learned a few things along the way…namely, the way the thyroid system works…and, in doing that, also inadvertantly learned what stuff out there is bs and why.
For starters, the body normally makes RT3…and it is normal to have some. There is no ideal ratio…nor any way to change it as the body makes it according to its needs. For example, if you are exposed to a cold or flu…or if you didn’t eat breakfast before labs, your RT3 levels will be higher (normal, but still a higher normal). Throughout the day your RT3 levels fluctuate.
The role of RT3 is to regulate metabolism…and, in general, to slow it…whereas T3 speeds it…so they work together.
The ratio notion hinges (incorrectly) on a false assumption that adrenals and thyroid are connected, when, in fact, they are not…or rather, they are not in the way that they porport. The thyroid system is seperate from the adrenal system…other than from their comand centers, the hypothalamus and pituitary that commands them both. However, they are commanded 100% by completely different chemicals that the body makes. IF, for some reason, a person had issues with both (and this is where I am disappointed with practioners who do the ratio bs), then you have an issue with your pituitary or hypothalamus…and, if they went to medical school, they should know this. If you follow the Wiki’s from the hypothalamus down to pituitary, to thyroid and/or adrenals…you will see that they are seperate independent systems. I am sorry that they lied to you.
Also, RT3 is made 100% in the liver. Nowhere on their sites do they mention this or even seem to know this…other than maybe they have read me in the last 5 years trying to correct them.
The ONLY time anyone needs to worry about RT3 is if their level is over the range and they have persistent hypo sysmptoms despite normal T3 & T4 levels.
T3 is not a feel good medicine…nor will it help anyone lose weight (unless they are truly low due to non conversion)…and it has the side effect of making one’s bones demineralize. The ONLY reason one should consider trying it (besides an RT3 issue), is if they have nornmal T4 and low T3. That said, if their T3 stays low…then it is NOT due to not converting enough and likely due (as the liver is sweeping it on the instruction of the hypothalamus which sets the levels) to being sick or not eating enough…in which case, the only course is to fix the sickness and/or eat more.
That is my two cents…I am sorry that you are having issues, and sorry that it still frustrates me that the misinformation on the web is keeping nice people chasing their tails. The surest cure for the misinformation is to figure out how the system works from start to finish.
Hope that helps, and I sure hope you find some answers.
Yeah, I went to college for nursing and then again for massage therapy so I have had a lot of physiology, myology and even nutrition as I’m headed for my bach in nutrition and culinary arts. Plus the decades of self study I’ve undertaken becuz I’m really into nutrition and cooking, let alone alternative healthcare.
I’ve never heard the notion the RT3/T3 ratio is not important or just made up. Of course, it fluctuates but I’ve really just paying attention to it as I’m investigating ANY avenue to see what’s up with my body (and it’s not just up becuz I’m almost 50, I’ve been sick since I was at least 25, probably longer—I’ve had PCOS at least that long).
I have come to believe that the adrenals and thyroid are co-dependent, if only in the fact the thyroid isn’t usually even the problem. It’s the adrenals underlying that; affecting the thyroid due to the adrenal dysfunction. HOWEVER the adrenals are often underlain by the GUT and its dysfunctioning. This is where I am focusing now. T3 is made in the gut also. 20% of it–a significant amount!
Feedback loops all affect each other too. The body all runs as a whole. Once one thing is off, a lot more goes with it. In massage we learned (and phyisologists hate this & argue it) that fascia out of shape in one part of the body can affect somewhere totally different…cause pain and dysfunction. This is so true in many aspects of the body.
I have definite hypo symptoms with “in range” T4 and low T3 (once it was 42 and 100 was the lowest normal range number!) I eat plenty lol I am dealing with chronic inflammation of several decades in duration.
Thanx for your reply. I shall keep on keeping on in my quest for resolution!
Hi Hélène,
Like you, I too am ever interested in nutrition and how the body works…and more so due to also being sick. For me, only 6 years, however, it has been a disabling 6 years and I very much want my life back. Being sick, I have come to find many others who are also sick with things that the medical profession do not seem to know what to do about. And, also probably like you, believe that diet and nutrition can play a big part in how we feel…as well as recovery.
I have come to believe that MANY people have issues with either their hypothalamus or pituitary that are undiagnosed, and thus subsequently untreated…this is the only biological explaination for issues with both. Other than, a slow shut down of both (as well as other biological functions) due to underlying illness. If you study the biochemical compounds that the hypothalamus and pituitary respond to, then you will see that they are independent of each other in regards to all the different glands they control.
I am a firm believer in going back and figuring out how all the various things actually work…because often, then, the cure or fix becomes readily visable…but that is just me.
One thing I did, which started an amazing trail of discovery, is genetic testing. You may have heard a bit in your research about MTHFR et al. It goes into the genes that code the making of enzymes, which then control how we make and unmake nutrients and chemicals out body needs. I found this very interesting as we only need to eat a small fraction of what we need to make…and, I wasn’t getting well with nutrition (currently, most foods I eat come out untouched). So it goes into heady things like the methyl cycle and all the other various cycles.
The premise is that you take what you would make after a defect. So, for instance, if you had a defect in the MTHFR gene with codes the enzyme with the same acronym…which adds a methyl group onto folate, you would simply take methyl-folate. However, umpteen of these supplements my doctor gave me made me much worse…so, I looked further…and this is where I began having my own ah ha.
What I did was to take my genetic reports and list all the things it said were afftected and have my doctor test those things to see what, if anything, was actually being affected. My premise, IF a person has a double defect in MTHFR…then either they would be dead by middle age…OR…something else (that they don’t know about yet) is adding a methyl group onto folate.
This panel, which was rather simple, lead to more answers than I have ever found in 5 years of being sick. I found out that I was not making taurine (the supplement of which brought back my strength and saved me from needing a wheelchair), nor do I make glutathione well…yet have high amounts of cycteine (which makes those two things)…and why my liver was getting so sick from the antibiotics they had me on…the removal of which has led to my increasing health.
I also found out that I was not making adrenaline or GABA. No cure or fix (yet) for the adrenaline issue, but the rx Baclofen has gone a long way in relieving the stiffness that had my body curled up.
Many people who are sick are very smart people…only some of those people have the money to buy all the supplements that so-called “experts” say we should take…and then only to find that they didn’t really work…or worse, made them worse. What I learned by my study of the methyl cycle et al, is that even what we believe to be healthy food (ie greens), can make certain people very very sick (ie those with MTHFR defects)…as can supplements. The genetic testing is one way to personalize supplementation. But again, how the experts do it…and the logic I applied to it still has a gap between. That said, I am many many times better than before discovering all that. My belief, we are all just trying to find answers…I try to share what I have found esp as far as what I have found different from others.
The RT3 thing…just goes down to understanding how it works. As I say, I have a huge issue with RT3…I take T3 only (as I have no thyroid), and look forward to the day when my health is under control enough that I can go back to T4. I ache for those who are sick and struggling, and hurt for the practioners (well meaning as they are) who read the internet and what people want and just give it to them sans their medical knowledge…like those who give T3 to every tired person or to help people lose weight…or just give Armor and/or iodine to those with thyroid autoimmune…they do it with stunning fregency, because someone who wanted to make a name for themselves on the internet said it was good on a website…and they want to sell what people want to buy so they throw their own knowledge to the side…as these things do in fact make people very sick. The RT3 ration thing was made up by a person who is not a doctor, or even a nurse…and yet are practicing medicine in a yahoo email group..to the point of telling a person on T3 to ignore her heart palps, she had a heart attack following their advice and nearly died. Hence why I always advocate to educate yourself on how the actual system works step by step (medical books, not the internet) and apply heavy doses of logic and reason.
I have no issues saying something different than what the crowd is saying…been that way my whole life…and found that there is about a five year turn around time until what I am saying becomes common knowledge. Those thyroid sites are NOW, five years later, finally starting to connect liver and T4 to T3 conversion. I cant control the world, nor do I care to, but I can share what I have learned…and that I do. Whatever helps, I am glad…however much you disbelieve, that is fine…if you keep searching you will eventually come to what I have found.
Best wishes on your journey back to health. 🙂
hello Faith,
ever since i heard about methylation, i thought its the bottom line of how one should feel in his life, energetic or low energy, it makes sense, but they say 50% of total population has some deffect on those genes…..and the environment triggers genes to switch on and off, i am firm believer of that one too……the lifestyle can determine if someone will become seriously ill person, and one that functions “normally”—
i was diagnosed hashi 3 years ago, when i was put on t4 only i immediately started feeling better, i felt my thermostat finally works, i was no longer feeling cold!, still i was not tolerating summer heats so effectively as i thought i will…..
my lab tests showed both my hormones ft4 and ft3 went higher and this correlated with my feel good….then my doc started increasing t4, and i did not know why becasue at a time i had “nough” of benefits on that dose i was taking….when we went to 100 mcg i satrted having same old issues, hair fall, feeling tired, and having hot flashes….so nothing was working ……but i could not go back becasue on lower doses i would be tired the same as i was before…….my lab test showed my ft3 decresed on that does below normal range!
now 3 years later i did a chart of my hormones, and saw that my ft4/ft3 ratio was 3.5 before i started taking t4 hormon!…….this funnily enough corresponds to good combined therapy ratio of t4/t3……….after taking 100mcg that ratio jumped to 5.5…..my doc responded to that giving me even more t4…..i did not read anything at a time….i ended up at 6! so my ft4 was 6 times more present in my blood then ft3! obvious sign of not converting well…..
now many hypothiroid patients have low ferritin …this is protein in the liver and it was low when i started medicating when t4 did work for me…..but what i noticed adding too much of t4 indeed stopped conversion of t4 to t3 with me! it must therefore be that excesses of t4 is blocking proper conversion..becasue this happened 1 year after taking t4…then the body stabilized somewhat again, and then….i chnaged my diet to more fats/protein, to stabilise my sugar….and either coincidence or not…my t3 showed up again the lowest ever, below the range….
now i started taking combined therapy 100mcg of t4 +25 mcg of t3…..and i feel huge improvement! i am not there 100%
i do think that t4 monotherapy is just not good for seriously hypothirodi people, like i was! and that right therapy must keep ft4/ft3 ratio around 3.5!…..and i dont get it why it all got so complicated in the process???
and why do you think reverse t3 is not of any value?
when i started supplemeting betaine hcl + pepsine witch is said to improve methylation in the liver and kidneys only….my brain fog lifted!! it was AHA moment for me…..i di dnot feel like that since my teenage….but after 5 weeks that magic stopped working!!…..
after all my experience i started to believe that something like reverse T3 exists…..becasue i did notice how doses above 75mcg of t4 did start to make me worse, my hair started falling out….
and yes look for signs about bad methylation, but 50% of people would develop some metabolic issue…and i guess genes are not perfect with anyone…and still they dont develope thyroid disease, …its part of living we can not be perfect, but i think we CAN find a way to treat it to feel better, and i think combined therapy t4 and t3 must be standard for hypothiroid treatment! and not just t4!
t4 helped me only not to feel cold, and nothing else so much!…..
my anti stress supplement has taurine too, and when i drink it i feel better, my mom too! so i think not only you but many people would benefit from taurine!…….
can you pls tell me what suppelemts are the most safe in your oppinion? are larger doses of b complex safe to take?
i am as well very wary of what to supplement, i treid d3 becasue i am slightly below low range, and after 2 weeks of taking 3000 i.j. i developed mole sensitivity!! my moles started like bruning…inflamed…..then i thought to myself omg is this a connection between sun , vitamin d and melanoma?
i stopped supplementing……
i spent huge amounts of money on supplements none ever worked, recently i am trying to buy only products contaning b complex and a little bit of this and that….becasue i notice they help me..magnesium was very beneficial! was huge discovery for me
and i think beeing hypothiroid for 15 years must casue mineral vitamin deficiency in the body
and the gut bacteria….i think they also influence a lot what minerals and vitamins we will be deficient in…..its 80% of our immune system this is real hard core biochemistry whats going on there…..its researched on mices…..if you share diabetes 2 gut flora with new mice it will develope the same disease!!
looking forward to your answer on reverse t3…thank you
If you think you may have MTHR, etc. take the methylated folate and B12. I do and i eat TONS of greens and sufficient animal products also. I take the methylfolate as its inexpensive on vitacost.com. The methylB12 I need to order still. Im already taking 20mg zinc, 200mg selenium and some iron (till my ferritin steadys out).
But then again I take kelp for trace minerals and the iodine so you mite not agree with that.
You should test your selenium first, symptoms of too much are the same as too little.
For years they thought that was my issue, but supping keep making me sick…come to find out, years later, mine is at the top of range.
Hi Ivy,
To clear up any misunderstanding, I think RT3 is of great value…what I view as useless is the “ratio” idea that someone (not a doctor) dreamed up.
They removed my thyroid because it was large and had multiple nodules, they did not test me for thyroid autoimmune beforehand. I was put in T4, like everyone else is, and became worse and worse. By this time I had read a little, enough to ask for RT3 testing…mine was over 100 points over range and I was collapsing. My doctor at the time increased my T4 dose even though my TSH, FT4, and FT3 were fine…I got much worse, new doctor revealed my RT3 was now over 180 points over the range…she put me on T3 only, which I do well on.
Like you, when I heard about the methylation stuff I was excited…thought it could explain and fix everything…until all those suggestions, from my beloved doctor, also made me much worse. It was then that I asked my doctor to run labs on all the things my reports said should be affected…again, my logic was that if someone, for instance, had a double defect in MTHFR…then they would either be dead by middle age…or…some other gene/enzyme adds a methyl group onto folate. Lo and behold, my labs revealed nothing any of the experts ever go on about…my taurine was very low, and I wasn’t making adrenaline. Both of these are in the methyl cycle…but are not associated (by the experts) with my particular defects. I have concluded that there is more that they don’t know on the subject than what they do know…and even though I think, if they applied more logic to it that it could help more people…they are not going down that path (yet).
Because everything they keep dreaming up to give me keeps making me worse, I have (personally) come to the conclusion that NO supplements are inherently safe…and, for myself, now…after years of trial and error…I take only those things I test low in. For me, that is taurine and the rx baclofen which is GABA that actually crosses the bbb. These two things have helped me the most. All my tissues were tightened up, my body was curling in on itself…the baclofen helped 95% with that. Before the taurine I was growing weaker and weaker, I was very close to needing a wheelchair and I did use a walker…after taurine I grew stronger and stronger.
I would no longer recommend people listen blindly to the hypothesis of taking whatever comes after a defect (ie methylfolate for a MTHFR defect)…instead, I strongly encourage people to do the lab work and see what, if anything, is truly affected.
That said, take what works…with the open mind of if it ever doesn’t work stop for a while.
The heat sensitivity is common in autoimmune.
The true test for Vitamin D is the 1,25 D…not the 25,D that they run…that is only a precursor, many who are sick (like you with the autoimmune) will test low on the 25,D…but will probably test fine or high on the 1,25 D…the only usable D. I think of the 25,D like T4 and the 1,25 D like T3.
Hope that helps. 🙂
hello Faith,
thank you for your explanation here, i think we agree on every point, yes i first came here and read some of your discussion with one person and also started to think d3 is like t4 🙂 and people recommend taking that d3 like its a candy :)….
i was trying to follow the advice tested only 25 one and tried supplementing, after 10 days or so i noticed all moles on my body are hypersensitive, not all at the same time but sporadically! i tested it 2 times, so i gave my d3 to my mom, she has osteoporosis so it may help to her……, as she was taking some prescribed by a doctor(yes i agree medicine knows far less then what they dont know so i dont trust ANYONE 100% anymore…..just see more value in talking to patients like myself, then docs 🙂
yes ideally i would go on and test myslef, the problem is there are no such tests here in my country, and i dont know what tests would be best for me…..
i noticed taking that formula with taurine def helps ! and my mother confirmed it too, she asked me what pill was it 🙂
i was supplementing with b complex all in several times higher doses then recommended, i did notice some energy lift….but nothing longer term significant for me, i.e. i dont see difference if i dont take it, and i take it before sleep because it calms me down 🙂
selenium i tried! 2 days 200mcg and i felt awful, just not for me, i felt exactly like i did not take my thyroid hormones for that day…so it makes me feel worse, so that i dont want to try it again
so 2 most recommended things vitamin d3 and selenium not working for me…..
i think many hypothiroid patients have low ferritin, and i have it for years. i.e. i first noticed it when i think my thyroid problems started…and i think this would be crucial to understand the link between ferritin and hypohiroid and liver
i totaly agree with you that people missuse rT3…and luckily i did not fall into the trap, i did notice in my body that when you take more t4 then your liver can convert to t3 it starts producing rT3…..and that it can make you feel worse….and before i start taking any medicine my ft4 to ft3 ratio was 3.5…..i read some studies who confirm this ratio found in normal people, thats what make me think this should be targte when medicating! i was taking t4 only for 3 years and this ratio gone slowly to 6! body was trying to bring it down but slowly it just shot up to 6 …and this was correlating with my sense of energy…..
so i would recommend taking combined therapy in ratio 3.5 or lower to target that 3.5 ratio in the blood, i am no doctor, but this is what i concluded based on my own experience…..
on supplementing i was never firm believer on it, but once i tried betaine hcl + pepsine, this was such a difference that i started thinking these supplements can make a difference 🙂 now i think 1st is good thyroid therapy…and supplements only where it makes a difference, and this is what i learnt after i bought too many of them :))
i bought l glutamine, and just read yesterday this does not helps glutathione :)…some say it does some say it does not 🙂
thank you very much for your answer!!! its really helpful
One thing with the D3…I usually would not take the selenium even but eat, say, Brazil nuts daily instead. However a endo who has Hashi says she doesn’t think it works for Hashi ppl–its didnt for her; needs the supplement. So I’m doing that supplement but may switch to Brazil nuts in a few months.
With the D3, I would take fermented cod liver oil ONLY. It has Vit A in it also, along with of course, ur O-3s and O-6s. It’s a food more than anything. I don’t work for nor have any affiliation with Green Pastures, but that is the only brand I would take. I don’t take any D3 currently as I just cannot afford theirs. The others are a waste of money IMO.
How much longer I take the folate IDK either. I see no difference and am just finishing my supply at this point in case it needs awhile to kick in lol.
oh i would comment on this—–i absolutely disagree that taking t3 is not remedy for people, and only t4 is….
i think since too little is known the logic principle would be most prudent to follow, and that is taking t4+t3 in a ratio found in the blood of normal people which is 3.5 ……..and thats the safest way to go….
i know how taking t4 only can make people feel, in the end….having low energy…and disstorting the normal 3.5 ratio……so you end up at 6 or so which is huge difference…the excesses of t4 can make people sick, stop the metabolism……as well, like any supplement you take in a excess is producing the same result as wehn there is too little of it!!
this is all ABOUT BALANCE! fine tuning, for too little knowledge medicine has its no wonder …..
but how on earth anyone came to idea that only t4 is remedy and not t3 as well …is beyond me! and beyond any logic!
I am 56 …. I was diagnosised with hatichmono disease at 21 years of age. At 17 years of age I was diagnosised with elevated white blood cells … but no known caused.
At 19 I had a baby; had an emerengcy C-section due to placenta priva (sp??) then at 21 and 2 weeks I had my 2nd child C-sections .. no complications.
Soon after the birth of my 2nd child I dropped her twice during a mid night feeding as I fell fast asleep – passed out type. My husband prodded me to see a dr. I was then diagnosised with hatichmono disease.
I had issues with the para thyroid also; and it was impartive to reduce the goiter size. I had nucular treatment.
I was then put on Synthroid; I swear I was exhausted … from kids or illness for 5 years! Finally it seemed I had balance.
Until I was 17 I was full of energy … I never walked … I ran everywhere. I was very athletic and I was busy.
Then I got married had children and became the laziest person you ever met. I had many traditional side affects, but not really weight gain. After one year I lost all my baby weight for both pregnancies. I could never decided if being lazey became such a habit that when I felt better I still did not have the same gumption.
Some place around 5 to 7 years I recovered. I felt good again.
Symptoms … I was cold, dry hair, skin and I cried. I have always been known as a crier even as a child. But I really cried over everything.
Once I was stablized (5-7 years) I really felt well. During the next years I worked out at the gym regularly … 10 years ago I ran a marathon. Then I stopped all my work outs. I didn’t think I wanted to … I told myself I should go to the gym … I just quit. And then I started to gain weight. Menapause? No exercise? LOTS of stress at work!!
Now at 56 I have my yearly blood test, and my TSH is a whopping 42.48!!!!! norm – .4-4.2 (I believe or close) so you see how out of wack TSH was. Then T4 normal, T3 -3.5 … so my doctor put me on Cytomel along with my synthroid.
I feel so much better. But why did this happen? I want to learn and understand what happened to me that TSH went crazy or that T4 stopped converting to T3? Why???
Any help out there is appreciated.
Jackie
Hi Jackie,
Sorry that you have experienced so many ups and downs. For me, the crying is a sure sign of too-low thyroid…as the symptoms of too much and too little, beyond that, are identical (for me), including weight gain. With Hashi’s you likely go hyper- and hypo-…so it will be helpful to you to discern the differences with how you feel with each.
The TSH is the pituitary’s request for more thyroid hormone…when it is high like that, it really wants more. The question is, why? Esp if your hormone levels were fine.
That you feel better on T3 is a big tell about what might be going on, and why you might have had the high TSH. Until recently, the medical world (and much of the thyroid world) believed that TSH only responded to T4, but this is not so…and it responds to T3 just as well. I don’t know how much you know, so forgive me if I explain things you already understand.
T4 is the storage form and is not usable…T3 is what we convert T4 to and the only one we can use. There are reasons that the body will convert less T3…one is some underlying illness, another is starvation…and the body will generally down-regulate (make less T3) whenever the body is compromised. One thing to check, if this is the issue, is what is known as Reverse T3 or RT3. If this is high, and by that I mean over the range, then RT3 will dock in the thyroid receptors preventing usable T3 from getting in…one reason for being hypo when blood tests are normal.
Another thing that competes with the thyroid receptors is Vitamin D. If you take Vitamin D, you may experience hypo symptoms even though your thyroid hormones are normal. Many people (falsely) believe that they are low Vit D because doctors test the wrong thing (25,D), they should be testing the 1,25 D.
I hope that gives you a place to start, please keep asking. 🙂
Hello,
I’m currently on Levothyroxin 50 mcg, 1 tablet morning and
Armour thyroid 30 MG, 1 tablet morning and still having trouble with my T3’s being too low. In the past we have increase the armor and decreased levothyroxin but than I go hyper. I did have stressed induced cardiomyopathy last june leaving me with heart failure, which i’ve recover from. At that time I was hyper. I just keep swinging back and forth and am currently at a low. My doctor doesn’t want to increase me anymore so I’l stuck here. interesting point you made, I have a high CPR level and been there for many years. Don’t know what the cause of it is.
Hi Mary,
I am sorry that you are experiencing so many health issues. You sound, to me, like you have thyroid autoimmune issues which, unfortunately, I don’t know all that much about. However, there is a really great book on the subject that you might find interesting.
Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms? by Dr. Datis Kharrazian
http://www.amazon.com/Still-Thyroid-Symptoms-Tests-Normal/dp/0985690402
I am admittedly clueless why that particular combination…other than maybe to suppress your thyroid from producing. That said, IF you have thyroid autoimmune, the Armour would make it worse because it contains the things your immune system would be attacking, which may account for why you get hyper when you increase it.
CRP is C-Reactive Protein…it is elevated when you have inflammation…which would also be consistent with autoimmune issues.
At some point they estimated that 80% of thyroid patients are thyroid autoimmune…so if you haven’t been officially diagnosed with it, you may want to get a consult. The two main things that the immune system attacks are TPO or Thyroid Peroxidase…which is the enzyme that “digests” iodine and renders it bioavailable. The other is TG or Thyroglobulin which is a protein that binds the now bioavailable iodine on the back of a thyroid hormone. Both of these are present in desiccated thyroid products. If you have thyroid autoimmune you will want to avoid natural or desiccated thyroid and iodine as they both will stimulate attacks.
Normal TSH, normal T4, and low T3 is usually a sign of an underlying issue. To be clear, barring actual liver failure or disease, this pattern is a result of the body determining to have less T3. The main reason it does this is because one is ill…and this includes low-grade, chronic illnesses that may even be so low-grade that the person doesn’t even realize they are sick. As Chris states in the article, this fixes itself when the illness is cleared up…and is also the main reason doctors don’t worry about it or treat it.
That said, you may consider stopping the Armour (increasing the Levothyroxin) and possibly adding Cytomel which is T3…and see if that doesn’t improve things. That said, if you still have a thyroid, I personally would be concerned taking thyroid hormone…but again, I don’t know much about the treatment of autoimmune thyroid or whatever point or purpose they have for doing so…other than to maybe shut down the thyroid and thus overcome the immune attacks. I don’t know why more doctors and practitioners don’t realize, or warn you, against Armour/desiccated thyroid…but suspect that many follow the desires of patients to the peril of their health (sell em what they want). No one with autoimmune thyroid issues should ever have desiccated thyroid ever. Yes, yes, some will claim they feel better on it…but I deeply suspect that this is because it contains other things they need. Anyways, that is my two cents…hope it helps.
so one has to find what chronic deasease one has to maybe help convert t4 to t3, and i know only of hashimoto that i have…..i may have other issues, my only worry is my memory loss, and brain fogs and beeing tired all the time will make me dementious when i am 60…..which is too early, i would like to be old and have good brain….so this is what i am trying to fix, what must one do and eat to be heatly old person…have seen demetia and its disgusting, and more and more people have it, and nowdays people do not live longer then they used to live in 19th or 18th century! its a lie….the graveyard is full of 90 year olds from 19th century in my country…..
have a feeling these all autoimune diseases are coming from bad quality of food….and maybe too much stress?…like living a life of a perfectionist…..i think this all si so unnatural…could it be the main cause just the stress?
i still think its the food too, beeing off the gluten took away so many problems i had and total level of inflamation decreased becasue i no longer have such PMS , its reduced 80% the only thing that is not good around pms now is headache which i think is related to progesteron, but doing exercises on those day help treat it without taking tablets….its just not convinient while working…..so must wait for the end of working time to get exercise so i dont end up with strong headache like migrene…so this is new stuff, so i connect it with aging, but am sure there are things one could do to solve those issues, i just wish i know which one are those?
it seems like thyroid issues are actually many many various issues and its like fixing a car, each car is different, but the problem to me is, that dont even recognize parts of that engine and what they do individually….let alone how to fix it
Yes, I agree, more people are sick now than they used to be. It is hard to know the exact reason why, and I tend to think it is everything mixed together.
Although more people now have issues with gluten, in times of old when people ground their bread from whole wheatberries (more gluten), there was not this issue.
One thing you did not mention is vaccines. Vaccines are comprised of partial viruses and bacteria…meaning incomplete, just a part of. Not only that, but they bypass the immune trigger system by being injected. They have found that many of these partial viruses and bacteria live on in the gut…and may, I think, contribute to food sensitivities.
They also cause problems in other ways by injecting the body with mercury and aluminum in ways that the body is less able to get rid of them (the body is more able if they come through the gut).
This is one thing that is new…and seems to correlate with the increased amounts of sick people.
The other thing you did not mention, is that certain things can change our DNA…turning things on or off…and then, this DNA gets handed down. In my own situation, my parents were pretty well…I am sick in middle age…all four of my kids are sick, two since babies, one at 10, the other since teens…all with the same symtoms.
Unfortunately, and I say this with all due compassion to the medical community, the medical industry is forced to operate about 20 years behind the knowledge that is out there. Also, depending on the doctor, people are likely misdiagnosed for a long time before they are properly diagnosed and treated…
Or, as is more often the case, many are just sick for years before any doctor figures it out. I think many thyroid patients fall into that catagory…they are sick with something else and the only abnormal lab they have so far is too low T3…so they research thyroid to a great degree, when it probably wasn’t the thyroid at all…and only the normal body response to being sick.
Also to blame is the really weird (makes no sense) way doctors test things. For example, in a standard check up, doctors test liver death numbers…not liver function numbers (so they could actually help someone before they got sick). Or, they only test T4…or only test TSH…and not the actual T3. If they could just design tests to screen for things that might actually lead to results that would help them help their patients before people get so sick.
Anyways, just wanted to add those things. And yes, the idea is that when the illness is fixed, the thyroid will correct itself.
<3
I am 21 years old and almost 5 years ago, I was diagnosed with Graves’ disease. I underwent the radioactive iodine treatment and had my thyroid ablated. I was put on the generic levothyroxine, got bloodwork done every few months but my levels and dosage were always changing. I changed doctors, she recommended I go on Sythroid. So I switched, continued getting bloodwork and for a while everything seemed okay but recently it’s been changing again like it had before. Within the almost 5 years, I had an appendectomy and also had a cyst on an ovary removed. I eat very healthily, work out and get plenty of rest. I continue to have problems with exhaustion, weight, hair loss, mood, the whole nine yards of everything. For the most part I am diligent about taking my medicine but sometimes things happen and I’ll forget for a few days and that seems to always throw me off to extremes. My primary dr has done multiple general blood tests and everything she says is perfect. Is there anything I can bring up to my doctors that could help? Or is there an alternative process to take my synthroid that would help me forget less or just another medicine in general? Thanks
Don’t know if this will help with remembering to take your synthroid but I read a link somewhere that said taking it in the evening can be pharmakinetically beneficial. So I switched to taking mine in the evening as waking up to take it on an empty stomach when camping in the winter in a tent is very unpleasant, trying to track down the tablets as there’s no pocket in the tent, tracking down the water bottle in the crowded little tent or realising I haven’t set it up the night before etc. etc.
Also I was having to wake up half an hour before I was served breakfast in bed, so this was disrupting my sleep at home. Now I get the extra half hour…nice.
Hi Crysta,
Sorry about your Graves Disease and other issues. A few things come to mind that may help you.
One is that when I was on T4 (synthroid or generic), I took it at night right before going to sleep. Not only did that help me remember it, like Honora mentioned, I felt yukky after taking it and so taking it at night helped.
You don’t need to worry too much about forgetting once or twice because T4 stays in your system 6 weeks or longer. T4 is the storage form of thyroid hormone and your body need to convert it into T3 to be used.
As to your numbers going up and down…well part of that is that your needs fluctuate…and there is nothing you can do about that.
The other thing that may be affecting you, and I know it affected me a lot when I was on T4, is that certain foods interfer with thyroid. Your snythroid should even say in the insert to avoid soy and walnuts. Soy is in pretty much everything from all the breads on the market (except Ezekele’s 7 Sprouted Grain), fruit flavored tea, gum, and chocolate, and pretty much everything processed…it is very difficult to avoid.
In addition to that, veggies in the broccoli family including kale and cabbage also affect it. Many people argue the point, but I noticed a huge difference in when I had them and when I didn’t…very hypo when I had them as though I hadn’t taken the thyroid at all.
You can do a search on “goitergens” and find a number of lists. This may help you a lot.
The only other medicine is T3, doctors don’t like to give it…it only stays in your system a couple of days so forgetting it can have huge consequences…and you have to take it multiple times a day. I take mine 10x a day.
Hope that helps.
Buy a one week pill dose pack at any drug store or dollar store. Put out one week’s worth of medication in the individual compartments. Put the dose pack on your nightstand along with a glass of water. First thing in the morning, take it and make sure you wait at least half an hour before eating or drinking anything other than clear liquids. If you forget, you’ll see the tablet in the day’s compartment, in which case, you take it immediately unless it’s almost time for the next day’s dose. You’ll know if you forgot your daily dose and how many you are forgetting to take.
I am on Thyroid from a compounding pharmacy. I take 2.5mg daily. My blood work came back with a very high T4 and very low T3. I am concerned and cannot find a physician who can explain this. I’m wondering if I should stop taking this.
Thanks.
Hi Audrey,
Most doctors cannot explain this as it is (still) outside their current “standard of practice.” The current industry “standard” says that for low TSH (the pituitary’s request) or for low T4 (the storage hormone) to supplement thyroid hormone.
As far as understanding how all this works together, to understand what your numbers mean, you need to understand how the body operates. If the body has a need for additional thyroid hormone, the hypothalamus (a gland within our heads) will signal its desire for more… to which the pituitary (another small gland connected to the hypothalamus) will release additional TSH to tell the thyroid to make and release more T4. The body (primarily the liver) then converts the T4 into usable T3. The main question is, why are you not converting enough T4 into T3?
There are a few reasons this could be. One is that you don’t, in fact, need more. Some bodies operate just fine on less…and just because the industry has a standard “norm,” your personal norm could be less. A huge tell in if you need more is if your TSH is over the range…if not, you probably don’t need any more.
Another reason can be that you are not making enough of the enzymes to convert T4 into T3. I do not know of any test for this and doubt that one exists. There are also no known treatments to help with this that I know about…and since most people who advice on the thyroid fail to understand that most conversion takes place in the liver, they don’t even seem to include advice in supporting one’s liver.
However, the main reason that people have normal to high T4 and low T3 is some underlying illness. When the body is sick it naturally down-regulates itself…and although doctors know all about it happening in hospital settings, they do not treat it because it naturally resolves itself when one is well. The challenge comes in when one has a chronic illness. The author of this article is only asking the question of whether or not it should be treated (it is currently not-treated).
One thing you may wish to have tested is RT3. When the body has too much T4 it will often convert it into unusable RT3 or Reverse T3. Again, this is a self regulating matter and the body does this normally. It will do it when you are sick and if you exercise too much or fail to eat enough nutrition. Again, it will correct the matter on its own when the condition causing it to do so is resolved…again, the problem comes in when it is something that is not going to resolve, like chronic illness.
In general, you seem like a candidate for T3 only treatment…however, this again is outside the “standard of care” for the industry and finding a doctor who will rx it for you can prove quite a challenge.
In my opinion, you do not need to worry about the high T4 as it is just a storage form and not usable in itself…however, I would not take any extra T4 if it was me. It also kind of highlights that your liver is not doing its job sweeping the excess hormone from your blood stream…this could be because your liver is being taxed in other ways, like you may be one of those people who eat little bits throughout the day or eats before bed…the liver also has to deal with what we eat and thus has to suspend hormone balancing in order to do so. Just a thought.
Hope that helps explain it some. Best of luck.
I have low FT3 (2.20), low FT4 (.66), and low TSH (.343). I have been on Armour Thyroid 90 mg. Seems if I increase it, I get shaky. My adrenal gland is in the Maladapted Phase II. My cortisol is above range in the mornings and in the low range after the late afternoon. My ND has increased my iodine dosage to 57 mg. to try to help my thyroid (with Tri-Quench). However, I am afraid of such a high dosage. I do have Lyme Disease. Does anyone know if high dosages of iodine help or are safe?
Hi Mary,
The low T4 and T3 is disconcerting, however, the low TSH is more telling. Your TSH (pituitary’s request for thyroid hormone) is low…suggesting that, for whatever reason, your body does NOT want any more thyroid hormone. The question is why?
One thought, is that the normal ranges that they give may not be your normal. Maybe your body operates just fine on less thyroid??? That is one possibility.
You did not mention if you still have a thyroid or not. Iodine is only useful if you have a thyroid…and then only useful if you are not making enough thyroid due to no other reason than lack of iodine.
Many practioners do not understand iodine and thyroid…in industrialized countries lack of iodine is extremely rare and then only if you live on a farm and drink well water def in iodine and eat only the food from the farm (no meats) that is watered with iodine def water. The thyroid sucks up all the iodine you eat…and “digests” it for lack of a better term the enzyme Thyroid Peroxidase or TPO is what turns the iodine you take or eat into something you can use. Th ethyroid then stores it. The iodine your body uses, the ONLY iodine your body uses, is what comes off the thyroid hormone.
To better understand that, T4 = 1 thyroid hormone and 4 bioavailable iodine molecules. The liver then liberates 1 bioavailable iodine to make T3, which = 1 thyroid hormone and 3 bioavailable iodine…which are then liberated when the thyroid molecule docks in the thyroid receptor.
There is (or there should be) a huge caution in giving people iodine. Most thyroid patients (like 80%) have thyroid autoimmune issues. Iodine causes the thyroid to make TPO which is the main target of attack in thyroid autoimmune…hence why they test TPO Ab. The other target of attack is Thyroglobulin, or TG…this is the protein that bind iodine onto the back of a thyroid molecule…hence the TG Ab tests. Taking iodine massively stimulates the production or TPO and TG thus causing an immune attack. You did not mention if your practioner tested your TPO Ab and TG Ab prior to giving you iodine, but he or she should have…and if not, you should request this as this could be causing your problem as your body may be turning down production in an effort to slow the attack.
Also, there is a huge misunderstanding re adrenals and thyroid connection…the only place that they are connected are the hypothalamus and pituitary who instructs both of them. The thyroid hormones and adrenal hormones do not talk to one another nor stimulate one another. My suspicion is that many thyroid patients in fact have hypothalamus/pituitary issues and not true thyroid issues…and your labs sound a lot like that because otherwise why would your TSH be low?
The hypothalamus is what determines what your hormone levels should be…and for the thyroid it issues Thyrtropin Releasing Hormone or TRH which signals the pituitary to release Thyroid Stimulating Hormone or TSH…which then the thyroid responds to by creating and releasing T4.
In the same way, the hypothalamus determines the amount of adrenal hormones you should have and issues Corticotropin Releasing Hormone or CRH which signals the pituitary to release Andrenocorticotropic Hormone or ACTH which then causes the adrenal gland to release Corticosteroids…one of which is Cortisol.
The testing they do to determine if you have a pituitary/hypothalamus issue are stimulation tests and they are done by endocrinologists.
On the subject of thyroid autoimmune, Dessicated Thyroid like Armour, also contains the things that the immune system attacks.
Autoimmune thyroid attack can leave you going up and down hypo-hyper and make you feel very sick.
You did not mention hypothyroid symptoms…if none, your body may just need lower levels. Having Lyme, it is very difficult to discern the differnce between Lyme symptoms and hypo symptoms as they can be the same. As can hyper symptoms be the same as hypo…and can have paradoxial weight gain rather than the usual loss.
You also did not mention having your RT3 levels checked, you may want to do that. When the body is sick, it will often convert T4 into RT3 rather than T3 and may account for your low T3 levels.
Another thought, you may be making enough T4 and just simply converting it fast…low T4 by itself is not an issue as you have some. T4 is not usable, it is just the storage stuff waiting to be converted to be able to use…the low T3 is the main issue…and again, bearing in mind that your body does not seem to want any more (low TSH).
Lastly, if you still have a thyroid and are taking thyroid…your thyroid will naturally make less.
My advice would be to check your RT3 and then maybe consier taking very small doses of T3. If your T3 improves, and you don’t feel shakey, then conversion is the issue. The only way to bypass RT3 conversion is to take T3 only.
I suspect your RT3 will be high due to having Lyme. The body naturally does this when one is sick and it will generally stop doing it when you get well. The problem comes in when one is chronically ill.
Best of luck.
Hi i want to warn anyone reading these comments not to follow them as a truth, because some of the ideas here may be missleading, i totaly dont agree that hypothiroid condition is a way of body downregulating itself, and the whole article gave no answers just raised question and pointing negatively, there is no solution just negative energy around many of these comments, i really empathyze with lyme desease patients, because what faith wrote looks like horrible condition, but also i was finding solution to my hashimoto and was almost sure i need to take t3, to my therapy, on t4 only for 3 years, i sturggled , went through bad stuff and am finally stable at 150 mcg, dont know if too high or not, but seems like stable now, after 3 years, but my t3 constantly low, lower then when i started therapy 3 years ago, and steadily fluctuating in tight range from very low to low
There is no logic that the immune system would attack itself to downregulate! When we have heard that there is assumption gluten sensitivity causes autoimune response, my experience is all related to malnutrition, i was anorexic for 4 years from 16 to 20s and getting slow out of it, this combined with some methylation genes is i suspect the reason, why? 12% of population has bad methylation genes, under lot of stress this can weaken imune systme, you get some bacteria , or gut problems autoimune develops…..
This is my theory , this is what i went through in my life, am 37 now, i dont believe that taking shower caused this or me going to the swimming pool for years, i know exactly when it all started, with malnutrition, i was starving myself out i think not many people would live through that…..
So saying that adding thyroid hormons is bad is nonsense, how the hell would body heal from vicious cycle, i added up betaine and it helps my methylation and i hope this will help make t3 if not i think taking some t3 to my t4 will help, also my iron issue goes on since that time of my early 20s……and adding iron to bad absorption is usless, but saying it is harmful, this is just negative energy and making no solution, saying that everything that people add to feel better will not be good is just spreading negativity that is not based on any fundamental data, and projecting only from ones own experience, while my experience is genes + malnutrition for years, and system could not be rebooted once it could not absorb food properly, i suffered dhiaria until 3 years ago every month
Hi Ivy,
I am sorry that you are experiencing thyroid (and/or other health) issues, however, am glad that you are trying to find your own answers.
You mention not understanding the ways in which the body down regulates itself…and I will try to explain. However, please understand that everyone’s case is different…and each case of hypothyroidism likely has its own causes.
That said, what is being referred to in the article, and what I was referring to is normal TSH, normal T4, low T3 with no other explainable cause. This means that the hypothalamus/pituitary is NOT asking for more…and that the body is viewing this state as normal.
There are two primary reasons for low T3 when everything else is normal. One, the body is not converting enough T4 to T3 because the liver due to some dysfunction (or because one is consuming too many supressants like kale, broccoli, walnuts, soy, etc) and is failing to do so; or two, the body is not converting enough T4 to T3 because the body does not want more T3.
It has long been recognized and known in the medical industry that when one is critally sick, in the hospital, that the body will over-make RT3 and have low T3. However, because this clears up on its own, when the patient is no longer sick, they dont treat it. This is why the medical industry ignores RT3 and low T3. However, the issue comes in when one is chronically sick…and so therefore chronically has low levels of T3…and whether or not to treat it.
Thyroid autoimmune and the immune system in general are seperate issues. No one knows why the immune system attacks healthy or needed tissue in people…only that it does. The gluten hypothis is one of many.
I too have a MTHFR defect, as well as many others in the methylation cycle…it is not just one gene that goes bad and throws a whole body off. Futhermore, if someone had a double defect in the MTHFR gene…either they would never be able to add a methyl group onto folate (and thus would be dead long before middle age) or some other gene is doing it that they just don’t know about yet.
I went a step further…I took my reports and had my doctor test all the things that the reports asserted were affected…to see what, if anything, actually was affected…and I came to find out that things people who are into that stuff never connect to it were affected…like, I don’t make taurine very well…which is no where on their methyl cycle charts. And, there is not just the methyl cycle…but a number of other cycles. So your simple answer of just don’t eat gluten and take methylated folate fall short for many who are struggling to find answers…and, if it helps you – great. The methylated folate made me super sick…despite my defect. Taurine, on the other hand, helps a great deal.
I am all for people finding their answers…as I am all for people learning (precisely) how the body does stuff…and, I am a big geek for that.
So, to be clear…the immune system does not down-regulate, the body does…and it decides in ways no one seems to understand (yet). But if normal TSH, normal T4, and low T3…the body is NOT asking for more…and presumably wants it that way. The fatigue from it could be caused by things other than low T3.
Hope that helps clarify. 🙂
hello Faith,
oh yes now i get it much better now, so i went through my records, and made a chart of my free t4 and freet3 hormons and it shows that i felt the worst when that ratio was 5.5 and the best when it was below 4,my doc never took time to get that relationship, so now i am searching the help for myself, and in my country i dont have any expert to ask,
i did not notice adding methyfolate helping me as well that much consistently, adding high doses of b complex was actually making me very tired,now i am taking some anti stress formula wich has that tyrosine, and b complex and for some reason i feel better, i just dont take them day by day, and i started agressively on helping my gut with probiotics, i know intestine is the key to immune system , so i read one great book, says that 2kg of body weight goes to those intestine bacteria, and experiments on mices shwo that if you inplant a sick mouse intestine flora who has diabetes 2 or is obese into steryl mouse, he will develop the same disease …..now the question is how to grow those good bacteria, what food to eat, they say that we should eat 30g of fiber per day to grow good bacteria in the colon, then there are 3 major types of bacteria, they learnt this in 2011, 60% of living bacteria still not known, but experiments show direct connection between type of bacteria in intestine to some diseases or obesity….which is so interesting to me, and so i am taking biotin, and b complex, betaine hcl pepsin, which did wonders for me, i started feeling like a human beign after so long long long time, i still have issues i want to solve, and they show clearly up in my blood tests, t4/t3 ratio should be around3.5% and its 4 for me, and it increased with the increase of levytiroxyn, i am on high dose now 150mcg….and TSH has dropped to below 1, but my sense of feeling better correlates exactly with that ratio t4/t3 and not so to tsh lvl….and my doctor did not see that….so now i am going with my chart to him and will ask the answer…….
i would like to make my t3 higher since it was higher before taking t4 therapy! ……
also have a feeling that blood sugar lvl has some to do with it, so i found one good article from dr ray pete, also reading his articles confuse me so much, one article he said one shoudl avoid fish oil , and all other PUFAs…etc so now i dont know who to believe,but this one on thyropid seems good to me
http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/ray-peat.htm
am taking coconut oil, this is very good for thyroid….and
my last solution is trying to take t3 supplement, and i am alsmost sure my progesteron is on the lower side….also my constant anemia…..have no idea what to do with it, maybe part of perniciosa aneamia, but my blood b12 is high….and i dont see chnage while taking high bcomplex with b12 vitamin..so i guess anemia is part of the whole package….
and yes on gluten, i have tried making my sourdough bread, must say i fel good on it, ate just one loaf so far, i liked it so much, scientists from germany found out that it may not be gluten who is making sensitivity to people but ATI protein, newly added to enhance properties to fight against some insects! its a protein that flares up immune reactions, and autoimune responses!……so thats why i did not notice that eating pasta is so bad to me like eating bread….in pasta its preatty much safe….etc etc…
i am a bit dissapointed that there is so little studies done on combined t3/t4 therapy, and so little knowledge about t4 to t3 conversion, and so little knowledge about it all, becasue seems like every other woman has some sort of thyroid issue, not that they have heath issues as of yet, but that it impacts the quality of life(beeing tired etc) and that modern medicine can not even offer 3-4 good theories to why is that…..
huh, ill keep reading although i feel like my head will explode…
Hi Ivy,
Knowing what your own ideal numbers are is a great way to help yourself, kudos. 🙂 Also, I am soooo glad you are finally starting to find things that help.
Interesting about the gut flora…I read an article that suggested obesity was caused by too much flora breaking down too much food.
It can be hard to know what to trust as every week someone seems to come up with a new theory on how the body works.
Increasing the T3, I also feel, is important. Your T3 should be in the normal range.
However, I am not sure about the ratio idea…and here’s why. T4 is just the non-useable storage form and so even low amounts are fine, whereas T3 is the active form and is what the body uses…if that makes sense. If your body is not converting T4 properly into T3, then the excess T4 will cause your TSH to go down…and, subsequently, for your doctors to want to give you less.
You might want to try taking a small amount of T3. It is called “Cytomel.” This will bypass conversion and raise your T3 levels.
Doctors do not, generally, prescribe T3 because it is outside the “Standard of Care” which limits what they can do. The “Standard of Care” for thyroid issues…which assumes that everything else is fine and only the thyroid is failing…was written by the makers of Synthroid, the leading brand of T4. The thyroid “Standard of Care” states to dose based entirely on TSH (again, assuming that only the thyroid is failing)) and to only prescribe T4 because then the body can decide when to convert and how much to convert. It actually makes sense and is good advice if only the thyroid is failing…but that is only about 5% of thyroid cases. Doctors can lose their license if they go outside the “Standard of Care” so most are unwilling to do so. However, there are some who will.
If, for whatever reason, taking T3 does not raise your T3 levels…then you might start looking at why your body wants its levels low. One main reason is some underlying illness…which may be so minor that you do not even notice it. If the body wants your T3 levels low, then your liver will filter out all the excess you are taking and get rid of it. The same holds true in opposite, if taking too much T3 and the liver is not filtering out the excess…then issues with the liver. Since you say you haven’t felt well, my guess at the low T3 is due to underlying illness.
When the body has too much T4 (which you may because the TSH is going down), the body will convert it into what is known as “Reverse T3” or “RT3” which is non-usable. This is normal. However, too much RT3 (over the range), will cause it to compete with T3 in the thyroid receptors…making you feel hypo even when you have enough T3.
Regarding vitamin B12…the true tests that you want for it (because the blood test is not all that accurate) are: Homocysteine, and Methylmalonic Acid. Methylmalonic Acid will become high if too little B12 and low if too much. It is what is used to process B12. Regardless of your B12 status, many people feel much better on Adeno-B12 or Hydroxy-B12. No one seems to really know why, but many people who are sick seem to be less able to use stored B12…and so take often through the day. My doctor says not to get the regular B12 they sell because (she says) it is mixed with cyanide…I personally disagree and think she doesn’t understand the compounds, but I haven’t looked it up so am just passing along what she said since I cannot say for sure.
Oh thanks so much for reminding me about the ATI/Gluten thing…I had long since forgotten that and have been trying to get away from breads, only, like you, noticed that some wheat products do not bother me and others, like bread, do. Now my own situation (regarding bread) makes so much more sense. Thanks. 🙂
Anemia is common in those sick…and made more common because paradoxically iron can look normal in the sick when a person is still anemic. It is called, “Anemia of Chronic Illness.” That is just the little bit I know about it, otherwise know not much else.
Three tests that helped me the most were the Organic Acid Test (OAT); the Urine Amino Acid test (UAA); and a neurotransmitter test (this one from Pharmasan Labs). These showed, more conclusively, what I was and wasn’t making.
Hope that helps. 🙂
Hi Ashevegas Gal,
Posts like yours do help…many are searching. It also helps for those of us who have been around awhile to learn what others are doing.
You mentioned Medulla??? and adrenaline…are you saying that there is a product with adrenaline in it??? I ask because I don’t make adrenaline well and no one seems to know anything that can be done to help.
You can’t take adrenaline orally even if some product happens to contain it, it’s destroyed in your GI tract. Sublingually _might_ work, but I wouldn’t count on it.
Hi Faith, I think she’s referring to whole adrenal glandular supplements as opposed to just adrenal cortex? Ie. if you have adrenal fatigue with low cortisol and or aldosterone, you likely have an excess of adrenaline which will just wear your adrenal glands further by making you exert yourself and not sense how tired your adrenals are… People who are supplementing with adrenal gland avoid whole adrenal gland and stick to adrenal cortex, to avoid the adrenaline that whole gland would contain. Have you tried taking adrenal glandulars? I have low cortisol and find whole gland overstimulating and it does feel like an adrenaline surge followed by a crash… I use Nutrimeds adrenal cortex which would be similar to the Thorne product Ashevegas Gal mentioned…. I hope that helps, Is that what you were asking?
I’m not sure if you’re still posting feedback but I would love your thoughts on my labs, I have Lyme and hypothyroid, but I’m not sure about T3 conversion, I’m quite sure my thyroid condition exists long before the Lyme… My labs showed slightly higher than normal TSH and low normal T4 with mid low normal Free T3. I’ve had symptoms since I was a kid but much worse over the past few years which could definitely be attributed to Lyme and major adrenal fatigue. I feel better in NDT and have been playing with the dose, but I’m not sure if I need extra T3, if so I’m thinking not very much, that is based entirely on intuition but I would like to look into it more. I appreciate your comment on too much NDT causing weight gain, I do not know that and I think I pushed my dose too high. Because I have Lyme it’s a bit hard to measure by symptoms with fatigue and temperature fluctuations being part of the treatment experience… 🙂
Hi Megan,
Re your labs…high TSH is the pituitary asking for more thyroid hormone, which is followed up by your low T4…which is classic hypothyroidism.
I am glad you like NDT, but should that ever change you might appreciate a product called Tirosint, it is a T4 with no fillers. I had trouble with NDT, likely due to the fillers and autoimmune conditions.
Low T3 syndrome is the body’s normal response to being sick. It looks like normal TSH, normal T4, and low T3. It also returns to normal whenever we get over being sick…so many are unsure whether to treat it or not. That is what I had.
Having Lyme can make it very difficult to tell what you are feeling and why. In addition to low T3, I made a lot of RT3 from my T4 treatment. So when I was treating my Lyme (and have continued), I take only Cytomel (T3 only) treatment now…by passing the RT3 conversion.
Selenium made me very sick, and I came to find out that not only do we need extremely little of it, but that symptoms of too much are the same as too little.
Not sure what the conversation was anymore, but my cortisol levels are fine, as are all my other hormones…I just do not make enough adrenaline (and any stress makes me very ill). My doctors were more thinking on the lines of the genetic issues causing that. I am always curious of ways to possibly fix that with an adrenaline supplement. As far as I recall, adrenaline is not part of the cortisol process…but instead descends from dopamine and norepinephrine (which I have too much of).
Anyways, hope that helps.
By the by, after treating the Lyme for a year and a half with antibiotics, have come to learn it was likely never Lyme at all, but instead a muscle weakening autoimmune.
Hang in there.