This article is part of a special report on Thyroid Disorders. To see the other articles in this series, click here.
In this final article in the series on Low T3 Syndrome, we’ll discuss whether thyroid hormone replacement therapy is an appropriate treatment in these cases.
Why T3 Levels Are Low
Unfortunately, there are few studies that have examined this question specifically, and even fewer that have explored the question of whether T4 or T3 (and which type of each) would be the best choice.
As a clinician, my primary concern is always primum non nocere, or “first, do no harm.” From this perspective it’s important to recognize that the changes seen in Low T3 Syndrome may represent a restorative physiological adaptation by the body to chronic illness.
For example, the changes observed in the thyroid axis in acute illness are similar to those observed in fasting, which can be interpreted as an attempt to reduce energy expenditure and protein wasting. (1) Giving fasting subjects thyroid hormone results in increased catabolism (breakdown). (2)
In cases of chronic illness, however, it is less clear what effect thyroid hormone replacement has. The few studies that have been done produced mixed results. (3)
Some studies show that treatment causes harm, others show no change, and still others show an improvement. After reviewing the literature on this, I’ve come to the following tentative conclusions:
- T4 is rarely, if ever, effective in Low T3 Syndrome and may even cause harm. This is probably due to the decreased conversion of T4 to T3 that is seen in chronic illness.
- T3 replacement has been shown to be consistently beneficial only in cardiac patients who’ve recently had surgery, heart failure or a transplant.
That said, I’ve heard anecdotal reports of improvement from people who have taken replacement T3 hormone for a condition called “Wilson’s Syndrome” (which does not exist in the scientific literature or according to any mainstream medical organizations). Wilson’s Syndrome refers to low basal body temperature and other nonspecific symptoms occurring in the presence of normal thyroid hormones.
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I’ll be the first to admit that “lack of evidence is not evidence against,” and as I mentioned earlier, there’s not a lot of research on the effectiveness of T4 and T3 replacement therapy in Low T3 Syndrome. It may be that as we look into this further, we’ll discover a role for thyroid hormone replacement in these conditions.
That said, I think caution is warranted.
And, if the changes seen in Low T3 Syndrome are a compensatory adaptation of the body in response to chronic illness, increasing T3 levels artificially may have undesirable effects.
In the majority of cases of Low T3 Syndrome, I think it’s preferable to identify the underlying cause and treat that. As I discussed in articles #3 and #4 in this series, those causes most often include infections, autoimmunity and inflammation.
Articles in this series:
- Low T3 Syndrome I: It’s Not About The Thyroid!
- Low T3 Syndrome II: Myths and Misconceptions
- Low T3 syndrome III: Inflammation Strikes Again
- Low T3 Syndrome IV: An Autoimmune Disease You’ve Never Heard Of?
- Low T3 syndrome V: Should It Be Treated With Thyroid Hormone?
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I was placed on armour thyroid 30 mg daily along with compounded estrogen and progesterone cream for severe hot flashes and night sweats. My TSH, free T3 and free T4 were within normal limits but doctor thought thyroid was “low functioning” and could be playing a role in my menopausal symptoms. My free t3 initially increased from 2.56 to 3.12 after 2 months but after 3 more months fell to 2.2(lowest ever for me). Free T4 dropped from baseline of 1.06 to 1.08 and then to 0.86. TSH baseline was .743 then .277 and then .537. I’m wondering what could cause my T3 and T4 to drop while taking armor thyroid. My doctor kept asking me was I taking it correctly. I am, first thing upon waking at least one hour before eating anything. She wants me to increase to 60 mg daily. My hot flashes and night sweats are greatly improved. I have stopped taking it. I am seeing another doctor this week for second opinion and also because I now feel like I have a lump in my throat.
I was diagnosed with Low T3 syndrome about a 1 1/2 years ago. After going through a few thyroid meds that did not work, my Dr. put me on taking a compounded C-T3 10 mg capsules last May. I started to feel better over the summer and by September We dropped it to 5 mg a day unless I felt fatigued. Most of my fatigue was gone, even with the 5 mg. and my mind was out of the fog it had been in for so long. Also, I lost a few pounds, the vertigo I’ve struggles with for years virtually gone, and the depression and mood swings I used to have went away. My hair still falls out and I have really bad dry skin, but those are easy to manage.
However, I waited to long to refill my last prescription. There was a mistake at the pharmacy, resulting in no pills for 5 days. By day 2 I was shaking, and had chest pains and felt weepy. By day three Vertigo kicked in big time and the left side of my body was not functioning, meaning my fingers on my left hand would work right, pains going down my left arm, walking… my left leg kept giving out. and by day five I was suicidally depressed, sobbing and unable to get out of bed. I’ve now been back on my C-T3 for 4 days. Yesterday was the best day, but my mental clarity is off. I cannot get words out of my mouth well and my mind is scattered. I’m not shaking anymore but my left side is weak and my left fingers still struggle to work correctly.
All symptoms of stopping my C-T3? I’ve not been diagnosed with any long-term or life threatening illnesses. I was told by my Dr. when first diagnosed that low T3 is often associated with serious illness, but I don’t have the money right now to keep getting tests done to see…
What is clear to me is that my vertigo is a direct correlation to the Thyroid, as I was thoroughly tested for the vertigo and diagnosed with the vertigo coming from my central nervous system, not my ears. but they cannot figure out where… not tumor, no ms….
I am sorry to hear you are suffering so. I was able to be treated with up to 7.5 mcg Cytomel (L-T3) for a while and it was also very hard for me to go off it. It was hard to hear the doctors insist that I should not ever take it or allow any other doctor to give it to me. They insisted that my problem “was not the thyroid” and they downplayed the role of “simple” bladder infections, chronic sinusitis, or depression short of major depression as a cause of Low T3 with normal or low TSH.
When I was diagnosed with depression, though, I found out that Wellbutrin would address most of the issues I had associated with low thyroid. I could never tolerate SSRI’s though. You may want to ask your doctor about that.
I can’t say I have ever had vertigo, though.
Thank you Fern. If the vertigo would go away I would feel a lot better I think. I spoke to my Dr. today. She wants me to see a cardiologist for the chest pain and take a few more blood test. Crashing off your Thyroid medicine… not good
I think it’s a crying shame that doctors will hand out anti-depressants like candy, but often refuse to give patients T3, or enough to help their problem. Paul Robinson, author of “Recovering with T3,” accurately summarizes it: “It is the progress in how a patient actually feels that doctors should be primarily using to assess the quality of their treatment.”
Hi All.
My blood test are:
T3 1.13 (1.20-2.80) !!!!
T4 117.66 (78,38-157,4)
TSH 1,59 (0,34-5,60)
TgAt 2,1 (<4)
TPOAt 77,9 (<9) !!!!!
fT3 4,85 (3,84-5,99)
fT4 11,35 (7,85-14,42)
Am I "Low 3 Syndrom" case.
In your opinion what are priorities-should I start to take some suplement, or start with food diet to lower inflamation, and test blood again before start taking any T4 or T3 ?
Please help and thanks in advanced
Doesn’t look like low t3 syndrome since you have room to improve the other lab values-not maxed out. If you feel bad, tired, etc take thyroid replacement. I tried kelp + supplements instead of taking thyroid med and it didn’t work. I needed replacement but fought it…and ended up taking it anyway. Don’t wait- get better. You just have to wait to complete the thyroid scan and uptake test of ordered.
These are the test results that I received yesterday and immediately went to search for information and I forgot to write the other symptoms that I have: digestive problems (waiting for for the Food intolerance Test results ), I am always cold, low blood pressure, low body temperature, feeling of the heart palpitations , fatigue, anxiety, depression, tingling sensation all over my body, frequent headaches, hair loss, inability to get pregnant for last 9 years. Most of these symptoms I have for several years now.
A few years ago my GP doctor sent me to thyroid hormone test but only T3, T4 and TSH and they were all within the normal range.
Generally, I feel pretty bad.
It is typical for one to have symptoms and the labs are still normal so we don’t get any help. I had all of your symptoms except the inability to get pregnant. I was in my 40’s and prevented it by that time. Heart palps are also a hypo symptom. When I felt them during that time I just thought I had to cough and realized after talking to an endo that it was palps. I’m glad you are able to get help now that the labs show you need it. You will feel so much better. I recommend Levoxyl rather than Synthroid. I have tried armor, generic, Synthroid. I feel much better with Levoxyl -for 7years.
Hi Vana,
I am sorry that you feel yukky.
It is my understanding that in thyroid autoimmune that the thyroid levels go from too high to too low. Heart palps are generally a sign of too high.
It is possible that thyroid autoimmune can explain all your symptoms…you may want to search “Hashi’s”.
Some basic panel tests you might want to consider are:
CRP(C-Reactive Protein) for inflammation;
SED Rate for inflammation
ANA/FANA (Anti-Nuclear Antibody) for other autoimmune
RA-Factor for autoimmune
These are a great place to start.
Hope that helps, hope you find some answers, and deeply hope you feel better soon.
Hi Vana,
Your TPO Antibodies are positive. TPO is Thyroidperoxidase…in other words, the enzyme that processes iodine that you take in into bioavailable iodine. I would NOT take ANY iodine supplements if I were you.
I would also suggest the wonderful book by Dr. Datis K called Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms When My Lab Results Are Normal.
http://www.amazon.com/Still-Thyroid-Symptoms-Tests-Normal/dp/0985690402/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420757720&sr=8-1&keywords=why+do+i+still+have+thyroid+symptoms+when+my+lab+tests+are+normal
It is not like what it sounds, Dr. K goes into detail about the autoimmune condition of the thyroid and gives a very wonderful premise on how to treat it.
Hope that helps,
Faith
PS…that means that your immune system is attacking the TPO enzyme. Therefore, taking iodine would cause an increase in TPO and thus an increase in attack.
Thank you all for your help.
Also have low B12 and D. I am on AIP diet now, taking fermented cod liver oil, selenium, B12, magnesium. Generally, feeling a lot better. Still have sort of heart palps/shaking in the nights and sometimes during the day.
Hi All – I normally wouldn’t ask for advice on this type of format but it seems there are a lot of supportive people here who have some experience. I have chronic Lyme disease that was diagnosed in May. I was about to start treatment in August and then found out I was pregnant. (I’m 30). As far as thyroid, my doctor started me on Armour about 2 years ago 60mg 2x/day due to high reverse T3 and low free T3. He said the ratio was off. Things were good until about halfway through my pregnancy. I’ve had difficult symptoms, and the cause has been hard to pinpoint. Some of it is fast resting heartbeat – bouts of beating around 110 when laying down, palpitations/flutters, pounding.. nausea, anxiety, many other other things. I also have pretty severe adrenal fatigue. I’m now being treated for that with a physiologic dose of hydrocortisone which is definitely helping. I’m having trouble eating enough for myself and the baby and I don’t want to do anything with thyroid treatment that would cause weight loss.
My most recent labs showed:
free T3: 3.5
reverse T3: 26
T4: .9
My doctor says the ratio is off again and wants me to try lowering Armour to 15mg 2x/day and Cytomel 10mcg 2x/day.
After reading on this page the responses people have had to Cytomel (namely fast heart rate) I am not feeling comfortable about trying it.
Does anyone have insight for me? Thanks 🙂
Hi Ashley,
I am so sorry about the Lyme disease (I also have Lyme, as does my daughter who just gave birth).
One possibility for the heart palps is too much thyroid hormone…it is a common sign of it.
The hard part about Lyme and the thyroid is that your numbers are just going to be off…esp normal T4 and low T3. There is no correct “ratio”…although some will argue. You don’t need T4…it is a storage form that you must covert to T3 to use. The T3 number is the important one.
The other hard part is determining whether your Lyme is a new/active form or a late stage form. The reason I say this has to do with the cortef you are taking…because, as you know, it is an immune suppressant…sort of opposite what you want when treating Lyme. That said, late stage Lyme often starts creating auto-immune issues in which immune suppression is beneficial. For what it is worth, I also take cortef.
Anyways, I hope you feel better.
Faith
Thanks Faith!
The Lyme is late stage. My Lyme doc is also the one who put me on Cortef and Armour.
Do you have any experience with Cytomel? It sounds like the right thing to do (cutting down T4 and boosting T3). I’m just nervous because so many people on this page have mentioned getting a fast heart rate from it.
I have been prescribed cytomel before . It was a while ago and I think it was only 5 mg once a day. At the time I was also taking armour thyroid 2 60 mg tablets at morning and noon. My reverse T3 was three times what it should have been and T3 was low. When I added the cytomel I began having terrible anxiety. I was a mess. I took it for the month and stopped. I changed my thyroid med to NatureThroid and that seems to have helped. (Armour’s ingredients had changed after they were bought by a large corp. and I felt like I was regressing which is why the doc gave me the added cytomel) I also had no adrenals and was post menopausal because all of my hormones were gone (the doctor said I was robbed…I wonder if that is why some of you were unable to conceive a baby?) so I was absolutely exhausted. Possibly all of this caused by years of gut problems…My alternative doctors really helped me. There was a point when I felt fabulous because I ate the paleo diet, took my supplements, avoided the 24 foods I tested (blood test) allergic to, and took my thyroid meds. I also detoxified and I have to take supplements to digest proteins since I can’t do that and eventually it affects my liver and kidneys. I can’t imagine lymes and a pregnancy on top of it all… But there is hope! 🙂 You have to find a really knowledgable doctor. Mine was at Progressive Medical Center in Atlanta, Ga. Dr. Victor Buoquette, MD.
Ashley, I have pulled a couple of ticks off of areas and had the bullseye developed but quickly went to the doc for the antibiotic needed, so I don’t feel like I am suffering any adverse effects from the bites months later. As far as armor and cytomel are concerned, I have tried both and it was a very uncomfortable experience with racing heart rate if I tried to do much of anything. I had to sit down and rest. I discovered time released t3 and it worked great with Levoxyl. Since then I have found that if for the first hour after I take my T4 pill, I only drink aquafina (with no minerals added for taste), my levels are fine and I feel great. I think all the chemicals in tap water unfiltered and water from the frig as well disrupt the full absorption of the t4 and it conversion to t3. The proof in in the labs. After I started drinking the right water the doctors office called and acted as if there was an emergency to handle because my t4 went high. I told them I felt fine and had an appt to discuss with the doctor the next day. The splitting of the pills throughout the day was to try to feel good at the right time was too much guess work and never helped. I wouldn’t add cytomel if I had a racing heart rate. The armor and cytomel being t3 products would be over effective for the first 2–3 hours and I would sink after until the next daily dose. That is why I went to time released t3. Glad I found a way to only take t4 though. Many time when you change brands or level of thyroid medicine, you will feel tired for about the first week though.
Also, vitamins and other meds should be taken at least 3 hours after t4.
My tsh has been low to non-existent with t4 high within range and t3 low within range since 2007. I feel that if I take less T4 to try to increase the TsH, my T3 will be out of range low.
Should I be concerned about my low TSH? Current Dr is; others weren’t.
When first diagnosed with Hypo, my tsh was very high and T4 was very low(between 0 and the minimum lab value-so if the minimum was 4, mine was 2)
Hi Ms. Moore,
My guess is that the doctors are not concerned about your TSH (the pituitary’s request for thyroid hormone) because your T4 is in the top end of the range.
It is the low T3 that is more of a concern…and your labs put you in a strong position to request to add some T3.
If you are in a position to do so (and haven’t already) you might also request an RT3 lab…sometimes we over-convert T4 into RT3 rather than into T3. One big reason we do this is from having too much T4.
Hope that helps,
Faith
Faith, My new (older-60’s)) Dr is concerned and wants me to reduce from 112 to 100mg T4 because TSH is .044 (range .4-4-5)Do you think that T4 (1.3; range .08-1.8) is really close enough to the upper range to believe that I’m getting too much T4? (This is really in the middle of range looking at it again.)
T3 is 89; range 71-180.
Sounds like you are saying that if the RT3 is even high within range that I could take less T4 and there is a chance that the free T3would actually increase on the labs (and RT3 would go down). If that’s the case, maybe the doc is right. If not…need compounded time released T3
Hi Ms. Moore,
The low TSH (pituitary’s request) means that your body wants less thyroid hormone than it currently has.
The T4 in the upper end of the range could be deceptive…meaning, you could have much more T4 than the range, but that your body is simply converting it to RT3 to try to save you.
The problem with excess RT3 (some is good) is that it binds in the receptors keeping T3 from getting in. I am not sure that this is the case here…the usual is normal T3 and yet hypo symptoms.
You have low T3…and that is the problem. That said, your body does not want any more T4. I think you have a strong case for more T3 rx. You could ask if they will try you on more, just to see.
Regarding time released T3, I am not really a big fan just on the logic alone…but I am sure some will swear by it. The logic being that things move through your gut and are only absorbable at certain places along the way…at some point, you wouldn’t absorb any more. That said, if they would give you a second dose of T3, you could take that at night or in the afternoon…might be all you need.
Lowering the T4, which you should if you add more T3, will not help you make more T3 if you haven’t added more…and, like you, I would be concerned. I’d argue for an additional dose of T3 with the lowering of the T4.
Hope that helps,
Faith
Thanks Faith! At one time, before I stop drinking tap water. I was taking 125 µg in the morning and T4 and 7mcg T3 time released twice a day. My T4 went over the maximum lab value and my T3 was okay on the labs; however,I felt like I needed to cut back on T3 so I cut back to one 7 µg pill in the morning with 112. Went to Jamaica, the refrigerator died , so did my T3. (Found out more recently that some Walgreen stores makes time released T3 that does not need to stay in the refrigerator.) since my T3 was ruined I stopped completely. I have been fine in terms of energy exercise & endurance. I have noticed that I have pretty dry skin on my legs which could just be age. I have told my doctor that I am inclined to take 3 µg of t3 even though he is fighting me to reduce my T4 because of the low tsh. My previous dr asked me if it would be ok for me to come back in the afternoon to test my levels to see how the levels were compared to morning. The levels were basically the same. He was curious about how the t3 was doing with time released. I took cytomegalovirus in the beginning and could not tolerate it even when dividing for 4doses per day. Feelings of hyper… Armor was the same at 25mg. I had to take breaks during a walk around the block. Took it after my walk one morning and the walk was a normal walk. The limitation I found with time released T3 was that I could not ride a bike for 25 miles unless I wanted to lay down for the next 2days and experience edema again at about the 48th hour.
In this conversation I was actually looking for your take on the TSH level being low to nonexistent with T3 and T4 being within range for one that is on thyroid replacement. I am inclined to think it doesn’t mater if the tsh is low in this case. Dr thinks it is hard in the skeletal system. I would thing it would be hard on the bones if the T3 was high…
Hi Ms. Moore,
My take is this, high T3 (active thyroid) can and often does cause bone loss. However, doctors also seem to have a very difficult time thinking things out.
In general, TSH is the pituitary’s request for thyroid hormone. It is also possible (and I think this is the case with many people) that either the pituitary or hypothalamus (which instructs the pituitary) may be what is out of whack. They do not routinely test this, as you know, when you have weird numbers…I think they should.
I take T3 only, and my TSH is less than zero. I don’t know how that relates exactly. Some people on these boards used to say that TSH only responds to T4, but that hasn’t seemed the case to me. I personally ignore my TSH because it is always so weird…I have had less than zero; less than zero; 9; 14; less than zero; and 17 all on the same dose. For whatever reason, I had been under the impression that wonky TSH is usually in T3 only cases.
The best advice I have gotten from my integrative doctors is to dose T3 based on how you feel. If you have energy and are doing well at a certain dose…then that is where you should be…and whatever the numbers are, they are your numbers.
Also, lab norms are determined by the average results for the people tested in that lab…which says to me that they are only rough guidelines at best.
Hope that helps,
Faith
I was reading about the 3 forms of deiodinases enzymes that are responsible for conversion of T4 to T3 and in the case of the third form, D3, converts T4 to RT3. The one in the hypothalamus is D2. So TSH levels are determined in response to the level of this enzyme. Or as the article says – “deiodinase enzymes are essential control points of cellular thyroid activity that determine intracellular activation and deactivation of thyroid hormones. serum thyroid hormone levels may not necessarily predict tissue thyroid levels under a variety of physiologic conditions.”
http://www.nahypothyroidism.org/deiodinases/
This form of deiodinase (D2) allows for the phenomenon of tissue hypothyroidism whereas the pituitary tissue being in the normal range will result in a TSH level in the normal range.
Also…”In addition to having a unique make-up of deiodinases, the pituitary also contains unique membrane thyroid transporters and thyroid receptors.”
There is more: good idea to read the article.
Faith, i tried 2new Drs close to where I live and both were unnecessarily concerned about my nonexistent TSH. Back to my more knowledgable doc across town. I asked The second new doc what she was going to do if my T3 went out of range low if I were to take less T4. She couldn’t even respond. My old doc did run reverse T3. No problems. I just think that if you’re taking replacement hormone, the TSH Has no purpose. Since it has no purpose, the thyroid gland does not produce T3 as it used to either. So with replacement we only get what converts from the replacement t4 which leaves us a little short. If for the first hour after T4, we leave out food chlorine bromide, fluoride, caffeine, juice,…all but purified or distilled water, we do better.
It is my understanding that it is important to keep the TSH being produced from time to time. If the TSH is always at or near zero the thyroid will suffer by not having the natural stimulation of the TSH.
Interestingly, though, was that when I was taking small amounts of Cytomel (L-T3), 1/4 of 5mcg tablet once every other day or 1/8 tablet every day, my TSH actually rose from borderline low to mid-range. My Free T3 levels remained borderline low, but I felt much better as far as my symptoms went.
The human body is very complicated, though. I read scientific journal articles that gave me the impression that the Methyl cycle is important in converting T4 to T3, and my DNA report seemed to indicate I may have some problem in my Methyl cycle, so I take Methyl B12 and Methyl-folate instead of regular B12 and Folic Acid.
I am no longer allowed to take Cytomel, but I am on Wellbutrin which makes me feel just as good.
I’m 60, and have Hashimoto’s; I take 125 mcg of levothyroxine and 5 mcg of liothyronine daily. My fatigue has worsened dramatically since May 2014 when I switched from popular pig thyroid med to the current regimen (I was allergic to pig thyroid). I’ve also had depression since May 2014. I have to consume huge quantities of naturopathic supplements daily to try to control the depression. I have read that T3 only (40-50 mg. daily) alleviates fatigue and depression, but my doctors will only agree to 5 mcg of T3 daily. I have no other illnesses and follow a strictly healthy lifestyle (regarding food, liquids, etc.), and have no other terrible stresses or problems. Can anyone recommend a physician in northern VA (U.S.) who will prescribe me larger quantities of T3 without another $1000 or $2000 in testing? I just had $1500 in tests in November to verify that I have no other diseases (AIDs, diabetes, Lupus, etc.)
Ms klagh, I assume you take your T4 first thing in the morning and only consume reverse osmosis (without minerals added) or distilled water for the first hour after taking your pill. (I keep mine by the bedside just in case I wake up anywhere between 3 and 5 AM and then go back to sleep so when I get up I can have my coffee if I want-otherwise I have to wait an hour and just drink water). If you take vitamins or any other medication you should take it in the afternoon sometime. I am 56. I started with a 125 µg of T4 in the morning and 7 µg of T3 compounded/time released twice a day in 2006. I only take 112 µg now. So much easier!
Studies show Levoxyl is more effective than Synthroid
Hi Ms. Klagh, and welcome.
You did not mention whether you had both T4 and T3 tested…I am assuming that your T4 was fine and T3 a little low (why they would consent to 5 mcg of T3).
For what it is worth, 5 mcg of T3 is what psychiatrists give for depression in some cases. As you know, low thyroid can cause depression…esp the kind that is made worse by antidepressants. And, as you also clearly realize, doctors are woefully behind in how they still treat people.
Low T3 with normal T4 is often a sign that something else is going wrong with your health…even if you are unaware of what that might be. Being tired all the time is also a sign that something else could be going wrong. Just a though for what it is worth.
There is no one set dose…or average dose of T3 because unlike T4 (which you have to convert so is safe to take larger amounts), T3 is active and so must be more precisely dosed. Dosing of T3 is generally done by trial and error…starting lower and slowly increasing. Some people can only tolerate tiny amounts, whereas I take what many would consider large amounts. Another variable is how fast your body processes and gets rid of it. In general, T3 is taken numerous times a day (I take mine 10-12x a day).
Another side of T3 is that being the active form, you are in danger if you forget a dose or say get in a car accident and are not conscious for a few days…if the hospital doesn’t know you are on T3 your body could deplete. This danger is why the medical system does not, as a general rule, use T3 only.
I see an integrative doctor…they are a bit different from the mainstream doctors and you might appreciate those differences. However, that said, my doctor justified using T3 only by a year of trialing T4’s and my numerous lab results showing that I was over-converting into RT3. I was very sick from the thyroid trialing and often collapsed. You say that you don’t want to do a lot of testing, and I hear you on that, but that is what is often what is required.
Once on T3, you need to be tested often to see what your pituitary (TSH) and T3 levels are…and it is so easy to go over and under.
I can say, that there is no thyroid rx out there that operates like a healthy thyroid does…each kind has its own problems.
I wish you luck in the effort to get T3 only.
Hi and thanks for talking about T3. What dose are you on?
I’m on 5 mcg cytomel, twice a day plus125 mg dessicated thyroid in Canada, brand is called Thyroid. Do you know if this pig medication is known to exacerbate autoimmunity? curious why you don’t use any t4?
also curious if you looked into old infections as a cause of inflammation. eg my epstein barr VCA IgG test was reactive, as was cytomegalovirus IgG EIA test. it just shows I was exposed in the past, but I’m confused if this explains inflammation and if it warrants treatment?
after being ill for 45 years, my symptoms are finally improving. the big improvement came in 2004 from getting off synthroid and using natural hormone, although it put me into adrenal crisis. pretty scary but good to know i had to address that. its been a very complicated thing to recover from. but i have. it involved getting many things into balance…its all connected…
after testing, going on BHRT plus myomin, to lower bad estrogen helped massively with adrenals. it also cured pms migraine i was on so much medication for… since i was a teen. I’m 50 now. It also cured the massively heavy periods, and incontinence the docs were going to do surgery to correct. wow. no thanks.
iron supplements to get ferritin up to 80 now seemed to cure fatigue and weakness and finally stop my hair from falling out and its growing back now.
going on cytomel finally helped me get out of lifetime of depression. it took my ten years to find a doc to prescribe cytomel. i’m off all the other psych meds. i attempted suicide age 5. i really haven’t ever been well…until now…
I also got 23 and me testing and am on methyl b12 and folate for genetic defects. i also use potassium, magnesium, lithium orotate and iodine. prior to adding iodine, testing showed deficiency and bromine toxicity – hair dye? i got rid of fluoride and chlorine in my world, and every other chemical i can avoid…
today, my health is good, my labs all in normal range except thyroid antibodies. i take no meds except hormones herbs supplements. i have energy to do my life all day every day. I grieve the 45 years I had “wanting to die” and various levels of fatigue and well, you surely know the myriad symptoms we can have. i never got any traction in my life, and now its kinda late to start. but here I am.
my anti-TPO and anti-TG levels came down dramatically in 2004 when i got off synthroid and went on dessicated, and they are coming down again slowly, now that i’m on cytomel in the last few months,but hard to say what helped antibodies come down? have you heard of others with antibodies lowering once they went on t3? curious.
have you looked into LDN? curious. Thanks so much from Ruthie in Ontario Canada.
Hi Ms. Klagh,
You did not mention whether you had both T4 and T3 tested…I am assuming that your T4 was fine and T3 a little low (likely why they would do 5 mcg of T3).
I am very sorry that you are suffering depression. For what it is worth, 5 mcg of T3 is what psychiatrists give for depression in some cases. As you know, low thyroid can cause depression…esp the kind that is made worse by antidepressants (which further suppress the thyroid).
Low T3 with normal T4 is often a sign that something else is going wrong with your health…even if you are unaware of what that might be. Being tired all the time is also a sign that something else could be going wrong. Just a though for what it is worth. Sometimes when our health first starts failing it is subtle and the only signs we have are an odd lab result. Sometimes, the odd thyroid lab is all some people have to go on at first. Often times, we can think it is the thyroid and nothing else…in the hopes of fixing the thyroid and everything else will get better (I am speaking here from personal experience).
Regarding T3 dosing, unfortunately, there is no standard dose, or even a common dose, of T3 because, unlike T4 (which you have to convert so is safe to take larger amounts), T3 is active and so must be more precisely dosed for the individual person. Dosing of T3 is generally done by trial and error…starting lower and slowly increasing and testing all the while. Even on this board, some people here can only tolerate the most tiny amounts, whereas I take what many here would consider large amounts. Another variable in dosing is how fast your body processes and gets rid of it. That said, in general, T3 is taken numerous times a day (I take mine 10-12x a day).
Another side of T3 is that being the active form, it does not stick around in your body like T4 does…this adds an element of danger if you forget or are unable to take it on your own, which is my guess why most doctors will not rx it.
I see an integrative doctor…they are a bit different from the mainstream doctors and you might appreciate those differences. However, that said, my doctor justified (to insurance and her associates) using T3 only by a year of trialing the different T4’s and my numerous lab results showing that I was over-converting into RT3. I was very sick and miserable from the thyroid trialing and often collapsed when RT3 levels got around 100 points over range. You say that you don’t want to do a lot of testing, and I hear you on that, unfortunately that is what is often what is required to both get on T3 only and to find the best dose for you…sorry about that.
That said, I can say that there is no thyroid rx out there that operates like a healthy thyroid does…each kind has its own problems.
On a different note, there is a product called Tirosint…it is a T4, but has no fillers…it is the only one I felt good on (aside from the RT3 issue), just offering this tidbit on the off chance it might help you too.
I wish you luck in the effort to get T3 only.
Hope this helps,
Faith
Is it possible hypothyroidism is one of the body’s many self preserving mechanisms? A type of cold thermogenesis? And that replenishing depleted stores of anything will actually do more harm than good? Lifestyle changed are a lot more difficult than adding a supplement/script but I’m beginning to think that’s the wisest option. For those for whom that’s not an option, maybe a script/supp is necessary.
I’m so glad to find your studies I’m a good sample of everything you have said I had feel like I do have hypothyroidisms for all the symptoms until I decide to request levothyroxine for treatment and it actually works at the beginning but the side effects I had did not worth the treatment now I’m under treatment prophylactic for TB because I had the TB test positive and never treated before I will let you know if my T3 rise when I finish the treatment to confirm your theory of long chronic disease wasting
I got partial results of the blood work I got last week. My free T4 is HIGH while my free T3 is normal. Also, my rT3 is HIGH. Lastly, my white blood cell count is low and neutrophils measurement is low, implying low count wbc. I am not sure what’s going on. Can somebody please give me some advice.?
Hi David,
First of all, it is normal to make some RT3…in other words, to convert excess T4 into unusable RT3.
In situations where one has normal T4 and low T3 and high RT3, then illness is usually behind this.
However, in situations of high T4 and high Rt3, then one could easily theorize that the excess RT3 is explained by the body trying to get rid of excess T4. If you have no underlying condition, then this may be a likely explanation.
Hope that helps
Thanks for the response Faith. I got most of the recommended blood work that I’ve researched, which includes zinc RBC, magnesium RBC, free T3, free T4, rT3, vitamin D 25, ferritin, iron level, selenium, vit B12, and a few others. I did not get vit D 1.25 test, but ask for one. I do not have any base reference for hormone levels.
The red flags I have are low vit D level (low 20’s ng/mL), low WBC count (3 x 10^3/uL), a little high MCV (98 fL, some consider this as within the range), low absolute neutrophils (0.9 x 10^3/uL), high free T4 (1.91 ng/dL), and high rT3 (30.8 ng/dL). Test for Antithyroglobulin Ab and TPO were normal.
Also, TSH was normal, but on the lower end (1.86 uIU/mL) and T3 was normal (3.0 pg/mL).
Zinc and selenium levels were normal on the higher end while magnesium level was normal on the lower end. This is because I’ve been supplementing with zinc piccolinate and carnosine for past few months along with selenium and Brazilian nuts.
One last thing to keep in mind is that I had two surgeries last year that were 9 months apart and had a lot of antibiotics afterward, which killed my gut health. I have a leaky gut syndrome for sure because I started getting rashes on my body everywhere along with itchiness. I’ve had 4 surgeries with general anesthesia/antibiotics in total, which is enough to kill healthy bacteria in the gut.
I am kind of confused by the blood work results. I know that I have leaky gut -> compromised immune system -> onset of other medical conditions. Is there anything I can do to boost my immune system so that my body starts functioning properly? If anybody has good advice, please feel free to share. I am desperate and my hair is still shedding a lot :[
Hi David,
Besides fixing your low vitamin D, I wonder if looking at your copper might be a possibility?
High red blood cell MCV (aka high mean cellular volume, aka macrocytosis) usually makes one think of low B12 and/or low folate, but you had your B12 tested, so I’m assuming that was normal. (You don’t mention folate.)
Because you’re taking zinc and you mention gut issues, I thought about low copper as a possible culprit.
Both zinc supplementation and malabsorption, among other things, can cause low absorption of copper, and low copper can cause low levels of white blood cells (aka leukopenia) with low neutrophils (aka neutropenia). I’ve pasted in a few links below with more information, in case any of this is useful in talking with your doctor(s).
(Apparently low copper is also associated with osteoporosis, greying of hair, and nerve problems that can cause symptoms like trouble with balance.)
Hope some of this might be helpful in your search for answers –
Gillian
http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/herbsvitaminsandminerals/copper (excerpt)
Some people may not get enough copper from foods, especially if they take zinc supplements, which can partly block copper absorption. Large doses of vitamin C supplements can also block copper uptake. People who take zinc supplements or large doses of vitamin C may need to take extra copper to absorb enough. Those with malabsorption diseases or malnutrition may also need extra copper.
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/zinc/#safety (excerpt)
The major consequence of long-term consumption of excessive zinc is copper deficiency. Total zinc intakes of 60 mg/day (50 mg supplemental and 10 mg dietary zinc) have been found to result in signs of copper deficiency. Copper deficiency has also been reported following chronic use of excessive amounts of zinc-containing denture creams (>2 tubes per week containing 17-34 mg/g of zinc; (100)). In order to prevent copper deficiency, the U.S. Food and Nutrition Board set the tolerable upper intake level (UL) for adults at 40 mg/day, including dietary and supplemental zinc (5).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_deficiency (excerpts)
The deficiency in copper can cause many hematological manifestations, such as myelodysplasia, anemia, leukopenia (low white blood cell count) and neutropenia (low count of neutrophils) . . . .
. . . . The characteristic hematological (blood) effects of copper deficiency are anemia (which may be microcytic, normocytic or macrocytic) and neutropenia.[6]
. . . . Anemia and neutropenia typically resolve within six weeks of copper replacement.[8]
http://www.jabfm.org/content/19/2/191.full (Note: high methylmalonic acid makes one think of low B12 and high homocysteine makes one think of low B12 and/or low folic acid, but this woman wasn’t low on either – she was low on copper.)
Wu J et al. Copper Deficiency as Cause of Unexplained Hematologic and Neurologic Deficits in Patient with Prior Gastrointestinal Surgery J Am Board Fam Med 2006:191-194
Abstract
Copper is a trace mineral essential to hematopoiesis and to the structure and function of the nervous system. Copper deficiency is a rare cause of anemia, leukopenia, and myeloneuropathy, but should be considered in the differential diagnosis in a patient with prior gastrointestinal surgery. We report the case of a 51-year-old woman admitted for nonspecific neurologic symptoms ultimately found to be due to copper malabsorption.
(excerpt)
The patient’s neurological and laboratory findings were initially attributed to vitamin B12 or folate deficiency . . . . However, her vitamin B12 and folate levels were available by the third day of hospitalization, with a vitamin B12 level of 738 pg/mL (normal range, 200 to 950 pg/mL) and folate level greater than 24 ng/mL (normal level, >0.9 ng/mL). Methylmalonic acid was 0.77 μmol/L (normal level, <0.4 μmol/L) and homocysteine was 4.7 μmol/L (normal range, 4 to 12 μmol/L). . . . . Serum iron, ferritin, and transferrin levels were normal, at 122 μg/dL (normal range, 40 to 150 μg/dL), 259 ng/mL (normal range, 10 to 291 ng/mL), and 220 mg/dL (normal range, 200 to 400 mg/dL), respectively. Other laboratory findings included a white blood cell count of 2,000/mm3 (normal range, 4400 to 11,000/mm3), with 40% neutrophils. . . . .
http://171.67.112.51/content/123/1/125.full.pdf (Note: these three men all had very high zinc levels)
Willis MS et al. Zinc-induced copper deficiency: a report of three cases initially recognized on bone marrow examination. Am J Clin Pathol. 2005:125-31.
Abstract
Copper deficiency is a rare cause of sideroblastic anemia and neutropenia that often is not suspected clinically. . . . . Excess zinc ingestion is among the causes of copper deficiency. We present 3 cases of zinc-induced copper deficiency . . . . The first patient was a 47-year-old man with a debilitating peripheral neuropathy that had progressed during the previous 18 months, mild anemia, and severe neutropenia. The second was a 21-year-old man receiving zinc supplementation for acrodermatitis enteropathica in whom moderate normocytic anemia and neutropenia developed. The third patient was a 42-year-old man with anemia, severe neutropenia, and a peripheral neuropathy that had progressed during 8 months. The bone marrow findings in all cases suggested copper deficiency, which was confirmed by further laboratory testing and determined to be due to zinc excess. . . . .
Gillian,
Thanks for your insight. My result for vitamin B12 was normal, actually on the higher end. I was tested for folate too, but the result has not been released yet. I was supplementing with B12 in the past for about 6 months, so I think that explains why my B12 level is normal.
I suspected copper might be a problem as well. I’ve taken zinc supplements for a long time without taking copper supplements. Copper from food source is not easy to get as they are abundant in shelled seafood. My hair loss symptoms actually worsened when I switched from zinc piccolinate to zinc carnosine. I’ve dropped zinc supplements altogether and have been taking copper supplements for 6 days now.
I have not had a chance to read the articles you posted, but I really find your idea convincing because it suits my case perfectly. I will talk to my physician about it.
Hi David, I have my fingers crossed that this helps!
Besides shellfish, other dietary sources of copper include organ meats, nuts, seeds, mushrooms, some grains, dark leafy greens, and (dark) chocolate. (I always like to have a solid medicinal reason to eat chocolate . . . . ) – there’s a short list of high-copper foods posted here http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/copper/#food_source and more here – http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/high-copper-foods.php .
However, foods grown in low-copper soil won’t have as much copper as foods grown in soils that have more copper. The only map I could find of copper in US soils is posted on a site about raising goats – http://www2.luresext.edu/goats/training/nutrsoil.html – apparently copper is quite important for goats.
Hi David,
The normal T3 (the only one that truly matters), high T4 and high RT3…especially in light of the normal to low TSH (the pituitary’s request for thyroid) all suggest that the RT3 is a result of the body trying to rid itself of the excess T4.
While one would like to think that the TSH should be lower with excess T4 (as it was originally believed to respond to T4 only), it is normal as is your T3 (the one you use).
The clear antibody tests mean that they will not be dx’ing hashi’s.
All that suggests that the thyroid is not your issue.
Regarding everything else, you cannot (truly) tell if your Vit D (also an endo hormone) is low without the 1,25 D test…as what is tested on the 25,D test is the inactive hormone (similar to testing T4 only). MANY people have low 25,D who have normal, even ideal, 1,25 D. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to understand the Vit D process enough to end the fad or realize that the endless studies are thus invalid…I suspect that the fad will remain another 10 years. Sorry that you could not get your test.
You will have to decide what you do re the low inactive D.
White blood cells are measured in percents…so some will appear high and some low to non-existent…that is all perfectly normal. Each kind of white blood cell has its own function. Neutrophils destroy bacteria and fungus…so, unless they are suspecting AIDs, you were not having an issue with bacteria, fungus, parasites when your labs were drawn.
The one of interest is the MCV…or Mean Corpusul Volume…it just means that your cells are larger than normal. If this is coupled with low blood cell count (you did not mention) and low hemoglobin (also did not mention), then it could be a form of anemia. Since it is likely that those two other labs were normal, it is unlikely this is the case. They can also be big when you are making fresher new blood…as may be the case after surgeries. Also, likely not the case, they can be big if you drink alcohol fairly often.
The vits (zinc/selenium/etc) have nothing to do with thyroid use and function (although, the bulk of people on here will disagree). What I do know is that the need for selenium is very low (in the body, in general) and that the symptoms of too much are the exact same as for too little. Unlike vitamins (that one can take and take and simply excrete), minerals are needed in precious balance in minute amounts…and too much or too little can quickly put our health (and life) in jeapordy.
I know gut health is a huge topic these days…but (trying to add some logic and reason here) if you had a truly leaky gut (first off, one would get sepsis), then you would be having an immune response…which you are not. My doc had a great suggestion for testing your probiotic (most on the market don’t work), by putting it in a half cup of milk and seeing if it curdles overnight. The major problem you would experience from antibiotic use is the inability to digest food…and the inability to fight yeast. Trusting that you do not have thrush or a yeast infection…and that you are still digesting food, likely the antibiotics you took are not an issue.
I was on 2-4 antibiotics solid of 1.5 years. Not only for myself, but for a surprising number of people I know, digesting food has become an issue. Like corn had been for most people, more foods are becoming. However, you did not mention that was your issue.
Lastly, the thyroid numbers fluctuate over time…and change slightly when you have a cold…all this is normal. And just because the lab has a so-called “normal” range, does not make it your normal. The best suggestion I can make is to look up the body function behind each thing being tested…rather than the “theories” out there…for example, what cells use zinc…and in what way? What is the step by step body process of thyroid hormone, or Vit D??? What makes what, when and how?
I wish I had better answers…the labs look good. They probably told you to take Vit D…and it probably wouldn’t hurt as you are not having a bacteria issue, but may not be needed.
The hair thing…that is other hormones. I wish I could remember which ones, I deeply feel for you.
Hope that helps.
Faith,
Thanks for a thorough response. My red blood cell counts are normal and same for hemoglobin level. MCV was a little high, but my vitamin B12 level was fine, so I do not think MCV matters. My liver enzymes are all normal and kidney is normal as well.
The reason why I think I have poor gut health is because of many reasons. First, as I stated above, I’ve had 4 surgeries with general anesthesia, followed up by megadoses of antibiotics afterward. I had two surgeries as a kid when I was 7 yrs and 9 yrs old respectively, and I do not recall eating yogurt or probiotic rich food afterward. In addition, I was prescribed with Accutane twice in my life (20-30mg/day for 300 days, total 6000-9000mg) and also had doxycycline for acne. All these are possible causes of compromised gut.
Furthermore, I used to drink non-organic pasteurized milk all the time, probably 1 gallon every week. I also ate a lot of canned tuna in the past, at least 3-4 cans/week. My all time favorite meal was sausage, the cheap ones you can find at Walmart. I have stopped eating all of them, but I think the damage is already done.
After receiving the last surgery in March 2014, my body has been functioning strangely. I’ve been suffering from eczema, pityriasis rosea, seborrheic dermatitis, and dandruffs. I have never had pityriasis rosea in the past and my body always felt itchy.
Food intolerance has become prominent. Whenever I consume dairy or fruits with high fructose, my shedding becomes more severe. I cannot even have a sip of alcohol as it turns my entire body red, hot, and itchy. Processed foods are hard to eat as well. Common salad dressing and a lot of raw veggies lead to same reaction, increased shedding.
Adrenal fatigue is another thing. I do not feel as refreshed even after sleeping for 9-10 hours of sleep. I have difficult times concentrating and thinking.
I know that a lot of hair loss sufferers focus on hormone DHT. I’ve tried finasteride and other alternative supplements that lower DHT, but they all increase shedding and create more rashes on my body. I do not think DHT is the sole culprit of hair loss in my case. There is a bigger piece of puzzle that I need to figure out, but I still have not found the true answer yet.
So far, my conclusion is leaky gut (poor gut health) -> autoimmune response resulting in food intolerance -> compromised immune system (low WBC, neutrophil counts) -> infection (pityriasis rosea, eczema, SD) -> hair loss. Does this seem plausible? My physician just thinks this is telogen effluvium, but it’s been 9 months already and I shouldn’t have gotten other skin conditions in that case.
I got partial results back from blood work I got last week. My free T4 level is HIGH, but T3 level is low. Also, rT3 level is high. I am not even sure what condition I have. Has anybody seen a condition like this? What should I do about this condition? I would appreciate your feedback.
I tried 1/4th a tab of 5mg of generic Cytomel for low T3 for 3 days in a row. I could not tolerate it, I felt horrible. My HR was elevated (120), dull headache, nausea, couldn’t eat, incredibly sleepy; I couldn’t function. My current symptoms of fatigue and anxiety seemed like heaven compared to how the Cytomel made me feel.
Lori,
When I started on cytomel I didn’t have much anxiety, but the first dose, 1/2 of 5 mg tablet was great for me for the first day, but I knew it was way too much, so I didn’t take another one for a couple of days and then decreased to 1/4 tablet but not two days in a row. Eventually I figured out how to split it down to 1/8th and that worked for me for a while. As my body adjusted I could take more without my HR rising above 80 or my BP being high. That was the sign to me that my level was right, and I began to function better on a regular basis.
About a year ago, I had a low TSH test, although neither my Free T4 or T3 were high.
I was forced to go off the Cytomel then, and had terrible fatigue, drowsiness, and sensitivity to the cold until I was told I may be depressed and I was put on Wellbutrin, which seemed to help a great deal, even with the cold intolerance.
I also started taking Acetyl-L-Carnetine which seems to have helped somewhat with muscle weakness, especially fine muscles like the eyes (relaxing my severe double vision) and for bladder control.
Fern,
I switched to 1/2 tab of lowest dose of Synthroid to see if it can boost my T3. I am not really tolerating it either. It is giving me insomnia and nervousness; only 5 days into it. I took Wellbutrin 4 years ago for weight loss and I felt really good on it. I have read that it’s not always necessary to try to correct low T3 but address the underlying problem, I am also peri-menopausal. I have considered trying Wellbutrin again to see if it can help with my mood and fatigue. How are you doing on it?
If I understand correctly, 5 mg is the lowest dose of Cytomel and it was way too much for me until I chopped the pill into 8 pieces… but even the Synthroid lowest dose, 25 mcg, I believe… if you get a bad reaction to that, then you are probably converting the thyroxine to triiodothyronine well enough. I suspect it doesn’t happen very well with me.
Even though my endocrinologist told me that my labs may indicate that I could be having a “non-thyroidal illness” [or Low T3] and it may have caused my TSH level to drop without the FT4 rising, he has also said that no condition that I know I have could have caused it. It might be caused by severe depression or severe psychosis, or at least something more severe than chronic sinusitis.
I don’t think my depression is that severe, especially when on the Wellbutrin. Yes, it is working well for me but the doctor had to increase the dose so I am taking 450 mg for half the day and 300 for the other half. [I take the 300 extended release (24-hour) tablet once a day and the 12 hour, 150 mg tablet for the other half day being careful not to overlap the times so much that I ever have more than 450 mg in my system at a time.]
I was having a terrible time with depression even on Wellbutrin when I started using estrogen and especially when my OB/gyn had me use it 3 times in a week instead of just once. That was when my regular doctor tried me on 300 mg Wellbutrin plus some Zoloft. I didn’t do well on that combination so he had me do the 300-450 mg Wellbutrin that I am doing now. I also stopped the estrogen because it was obvious to me that it had the worst effect on me.
Anyway, I understand the necessity of finding the illness that is responsible for the Low T3 Syndrome, but the doctors seem to believe I am just perfectly healthy other than having auto-antibodies that could cause either Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis or Graves’ Disease. So they say it’s depression but the low energy and inability to function well, remain with me.
Fern and Lori: Do you mean Cytomel 5 micrograms, not mg?
Casper, you’re right, I mean 5 mcg not 5 mg.
I’m 62. Diagnosed with hypothyroidism at 28 at the onset of myxedema coma. Prescribed 200 mg Synthroid. Over the years I tried natural thyroid medications, but they made my heart race while not helping symptoms very much. Darn. I wanted to be on something “natural.” Oh well. Eventually went back on Synthroid 110 mg as I aged – but suffered symptoms all my adult life. Had a Thermography Test done 10 years ago – it did report a “severe viral infection” that I can’t seem to shake off entirely. I’m ok if I keep on high doses of Vitamin C, etc. and don’t overwork my body. But if I let myself get run down or stressed too much emotionally, the upper respiratory suffers and I cough up a little stuff. I don’t know who to go to find out what kind of virus is causing this, and how to destroy it so I do the best I can. I betcha the thyroid problems are connected to that virus, but can’t prove it right now. So then – a few years ago, symptoms worsened, so I experimented and increased the T4 Synthroid which caused diarrhea, but did make me feel a bit better. I knew something was wrong so went to MD and asked that my thyroid be checked. He told me nothing was wrong with my thyroid and tried to push Zoloft into me! I changed MD’s immediately. Found an out of town alternative MD who did all the tests, including Reverse T3 – and that was way out of range at 425. I had done my homework and showed him research on T3 Cytomel. He prescribed a low dose, breaking up the tabs which I took sublingually. I monitored my pulse 3X day. I did start to feel better. I increased the dose gradually and still take Cytomel 2-3X a day. It helps me more than any other medications I’ve used. I’m not symptom free but function better. I do half a dozen cleanses a year followed by colonics to keep toxins down, which also by the way, stopped the 8 years of horrible migraine suffering after just 1 liver cleanse and 2 colonics! What a relief! I grow veggies, flower, don’t smoke, drink clean well water, breathe fresh air except on “spray-days” and actually feel and look better today than I did 10 years ago. Its a lot of work to take care of self but its better than being sick!
Vicky,
Can you tell me how much Cytomel you take at each dosing daily? I want to take 15 mg 3 times daily to alleviate my Hashimoto’s, and I’m looking for a doctor in northern Virginia who will agree to that.
Recently diagnosis with low T-3 in the absence of any obvious illness. I am 61 and take no medications other than Topamax for migraine control and vacated. Just a couple of bad disc in my back. I am at loss for this. I do have trouble keeping my iron level up. Not sure what if anything to do about this.
Hello hipifiggy,
Insomnia is either caused by hyperthyroidism, or hypo…
It means you dont take right dose of t4, t3 combo
Try with smaller dose of t4 then add just tiny amounts of t3 and this fixes majority of people who have thyroid issues only
Hi. Has anyone ever taken one of those OTC “thyroid glandular” supplements with success?
I was on Armour 60mg. A natural health practitioner (via electrodermal screening) found that Armour was causing stress to my body so I switched to Levothyroxine, which ramped up my moderate insomnia until it was nightly severe insomnia. So I wondered if the plain old glandular would help me.
(Anyway, the Levo was not increasing my low fT3, I learned when I replaced my old MD, seeking answers to the insomnia.)
any experience with the glandular type supplements?
thanks
Fig
yes you should eat bone broth every day or as much as possible to fix the gut!…if you dont have good gut, you get malnutrishioned, and no way you can function properly ……
this is the nature of things first gut then everything else, but to achieve it you have to get balanced hormons in blood, and maybe take thyroid therapy
I lost a lot of weight (+100 lbs) in a short period of time (<10 months) about 7 years ago. I did so by cutting down a lot on food consumption and exercising as much as I can. I believe this increased cortisol level in my body significantly and it must have stayed that way ever since then. I managed to maintain my weight for 7 years, but I do feel fatigued all the time.
In addition, I had a major surgery in June of 2013 and March of 2014 that required general anesthesia. I took antibodies and narcotics after each surgery, which I assume destroyed my gut health (flora). I've been experiencing hair shedding since March of 2014 and it just does not stop. My hairline receded a bit when I am in mid 20's.
I've tried all iodine supplement (potassium iodine, kelp, and Lugol's), but all of them created massive shedding after a day of taking the supplement and I felt jittery. I supposed I am very sensitive to hormone/thyroid level and something is severely messed up in my body.
Furthermore, massive shedding also happened when I took DHT inhibitors (finasteride, saw palmetto, and beta sitosterol), which substantiates my theory about hyper-sensitivity to hormone/thyroid level further.
Lastly, I have cold hands, feet and sensitivity to cold, but at the same time I sweat really easily and have large pores, which are contradictory.
I have not done a blood test yet, but I think my rT3 will be high and free T3 will be low due to prolonged high cortisol levels from diet/surgeries and gut problems from antibodies. I do not think I have any other medical conditions that's causing thyroid/hormone problems.
I just want to fix sensitivity to coldness and hair shedding. What should I do? Does anybody have any suggestions? Your input would be greatly appreciated.
did you check your thyroid? hormon levels as well ultrasound?
it may well be that you are malnutritioned in some way..or your thyroid hormones not balanced,
hair loss can come from low ferritin, low vitamin d3…..you should check those, esp if you avoid sun, or have no possibility to get tanned….then b12 you could check just in case…becasue all of 3 can contribute to feeling fatigue
then you should start eating real food, kick out as much as sugars as you can…not 0 but make sure you eat good proteins, versatile food, liver, organ meat..not just lean…maybe fresh milk, not pastereuzed…
and dont think about rt3! you are too young for that…unless you are not infected somehow?…anyway rt3 is not something TO FIGHT AGAINST but to think about why it happens….but i would save that money for the above….which is more relevant for your case
your symptoms point to underactive thyroid…esp avoid adding iodine! and you should test for thyroid antibodies too
Ivy,
Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I have never done a blood test for my thyroid, testosterone, vit D or ferratin levels.
I did avoid sunlight unintentionally in the past because I had difficulties moving due to surgeries I had. Starting June 2014, I started jogging outside to get as much exposure to sunlight as possible. On the other hand, I’ve been on vitamin D supplement since January. I am not sure if getting sunlight has different effect on the body compared to consuming vitamin D supplements.
I’ve been eating vit B12 supplements for 2 months, but I do not see significant improvement yet. Also, I took Ferrets Furmarate (106 mg of elemental iron) for 3.5 months, but it had no effect on hair loss what so ever. My iron level was 14.8g/dl last time I donated blood. FYI, I do not donate blood frequently.
The reason why I considered rT3 being a problem was because I read numerous posts saying that severe constraint on food intake (from diet) causes body’s cortisol level to rise and conserve energy by reducing the amount of active thyroid T3. Since T4 is converted to either T3 or rT3, to decrease T3 amount, body has to convert T4 into more rT3, causing imbalance. Am I missing something here? How would I go about getting my thyroid level balanced in a natural way? Iodine supplements definitely do not work at this moment especially because I can’t stand more hair shedding. Any feedback would appreciated.
I didn’t read this post until I had already posted. Yes…here is your answer!
The Vit D.
Vitamin D is grossly misunderstood…even by the medical community(sorry).
Vitamin D is a endocrine hormone…just like the thyroid is an endocrine hormone. Although there is often talk about different receptors, the endocrine system shares the same receptor…the receptor has different functions. Vit D shares the same receptor with T3. The issue is, Vit D is dominate and will boot the T3 out.
However, to understand this issue deeper you need (and everyone needs, and most especially the researchers and medical community needs) to understand that D3 is NOT usable. It must be converted twice in order to be used. Therefore tests of Vit D (the 25,D) are as false and misleading as endos who only test T4 for thyroid! This is crucial to understand, imho.
D3 is “CHOLECALCIFEROL” (everyone can look at their bottles and see this for themselves. D3 is animal based and IS absorbed ever so slightly better than D2 which is plant based…but not so significantly that vegetarians need concern themselves. The most obvious and grossest mistake well meaning, but unthinking, practioners make is to call D3 “active”…it is not, and is not any more than T4 is. D2 is “ergocalciferol.”
The body converts CHOLECALCIFEROL (aka D3) into “CALCIDIOL” in our bloodstream. Then our body converts CALCIDIOL into “CALCITRIOL” in our kidneys. CALCITRIOL is the ONLY usable form of the hormone known as Vitamin D. In other words, CALCITRIOL is the ONLY active form of Vitamin D.
CALCITRIOL is tested with the 1,25 D test. The doctors, and all the researchers on all those numerous studies, have erringly tested the 25,D…the non-active D3 and D2. This invaildates all those studies on their face…unfortunately.
The reason this is important…and it is very improtant…is MANY people, maybe even half, have a non-harmful genetic defect in the enzyme known as CYP27B1 that over-converts the D3 you take (CHOLECALCIFEROL) into the D you use (CALCITRIOL). This is not an issue for one’s health or wellbeing…but it does mean that these people will ALWAYS test low on the 25,D test that doctors run. Always.
In addition, anyone with a bacterial infection will also over-make the enzyme CYP27B1 and thus also over-convert CHOLECALCIFEROL into the active form…and thus have low levels. Again, it is a non-health issue…other than, the misunderstanding amongst medical practioners in telling patients to take it based on the wrong lab…because as an endocrine hormone Vitamin D is a steriod and an immune suppressant…not so good for those with bacterial infections (very good for those with autoimmune however).
Hence, people should always ask for (or demand) the 1,25 D test along with the standard 25,D test that they run…to ensure an actual def before ever taking, imho. Those with the genetic make up, or with bacterial infections, will have low 25,D (what they test) and normal to high 1,25 D (what they don’t test).
Also, for those with the Vit D Reversal issue…taking D can also make them feel increasingly unwell. I know I get increasingly tired and ill feeling on it.
Sun is always your best option, the body will never over-make the active form.
david,
I will advise you this, its ok to learn but its really not ok to make conclusions based on forums, other peoples opinions and half knowledge. So for you to try to understand how rt3 and t3 function and hence conclude something beneficial for yourself is futile mission, and not needed to do so.
1. There is maybe no other way but taking thyroid hormon supplements, to many people, and myself included this helped fix my gut!it helped tremendously for my metabolism to start using food i eat properly, to some patients even taking thyroid replacement wont help…this means either they have not found their root cause or they have many other problems….there will always be exceptions to any rule.
So your task is to determine your tsh, ft3, ft4 lvls and antibodies. If your tsh shows clearly you are underactive, plus your ultrasound….then you cant go aroundnthis naturaly becasue the problem did not start just 1 year ago, it may be on for years….remember first time you started beeing cold in not normal situations ……like in the summer or somethingmlike this, how long ago was that?
2. Regarding vitamin D…the one obtained from the sun is water soluble, its much better form becasue it performs many other activities……i cant elaborate on it now, its really irrelevant since so many of the unknowns is there regardingnthis vitamin, but it has very protective role, against cancer, it lifts your mood, energy lvls, and helps immunensystem A LOT!! Supplement is not ideal, but is ok…if there is no other option….i restored my vit d3 lvl by 25% only in 4 weeks of tanning during the summer time…..so during 15 mins in the sun between 12_2 pm you can get total dose for a day in amounts to 20 000 i.j
3. To help naturally your thyroid you must kick out gluten, corn! Eat 30% of carb,protein and fats……and start eating real food…….then supplementing iron is ok, with vitamin c, b complex…….you should test ferritin lvl that for you as a man mus tbe around 90 if its 50 or lower you are mulnourished…….in that sense….and it has no relation to ferum blood lvls…ferritin is beeing depleated to keep blood lvls unchanged until one day…..that body is preventing to come by slwoing down metabolism
So your task is to wake up metabolism, and how you do it:-) there is lot more to learn …. if necessary takingnthyroid hormon therapy to restore optimal lvls of ormons in blood means tsh to be from 0.6 to1.5 this sort of lvls and other hormons in the interval!!……and so you have enough to do only there and leave theories of rt3 to some that wants to work on that……..thinkingnhow you will solve this puzzle over night is not realistic especially trying to figure out something not so relevant as rt3. Every body produces this!!!be it healthy or a sick..its just one little thing in the process and you dont understand so many of them so why to other about rt3
Best of luck……
Hi David,
I am sorry that you are experiencing this. It sounds like you have done your reading and tried everything mentioned.
Two myths abound on the internet regarding thyroid. One is that iodine helps the thyroid. Iodine can only help when one’s thyroid is truly def of iodine (most peoples thyroids have stored a lifetime supply by the time they reached adulthood if they ate a typical or even better than typical western diet). True iodine def is rare…it would be evidenced by very high TSH, very low T4…and is only one of the possible reasons for those labs.
In truth, the thyroid “digests” iodine…renders it bio-available. Iodine is then attached to a thyroid molecule (T4 = 1 thyroid and 4 iodine). The two compounds that deal with iodine in the thyroid are Thyroid Peroxidase (TPO) which is the enzyme that converts iodine into something we can use, and Thyroglobulin (TG) which binds it on the thyroid molecule. BOTH TPO and TG are the primary subjects of attack in thyroid autoimmune conditions which comprise the bulk majority of thyroid patients. Thus, taking iodine increases the tow subjects of immune attack.
I strongly reccomend that people have iodine tests PRIOR to ever taking iodine to prove def status. The risk is setting off an immune attack and possible thyroid crisis.
Regarding cortisol and thyroid. While the hypothalamus regulate both…and does so by instructing the pituitary to signal both…the signals are two completely different compounds. Furthermore, the hypothalamus reads two completely different things in determining what is needed. There is no other biological connection to the two. In other words, cortisol is not needed for thyroid production or use…and thyroid is not needed for cortisol production and use. It is an utter myth started and perpetuted on the internet. Sorry that there is not better information out there.
Hair lose can be related to numerous hormonal and nutrional deficiencies. Estrogen is the usual cause in women…I am unsure what it is in men. My best reccomend is to get a good multi-mineral and have a hormonal base test. Hope that helps, sorry I don’t have more on that.
RT3 will be high if you starve yourself or have an underlying illness. FT3 will also be low in underlying illness…but can have other causes. Did you suspect an underlying illness??? If so, then correcting that should correct the thyroid levels (if they are off).
One thought I had…the usual symptom of adrenal issues is if you cannot go without eating for long. For example, super grumpy or irritable if you don’t snack.
It can be hard to track down just what is going on with the body. Throughout the day our hormone levels fluctuate. Standard ranges only mean that this is where they usually are for most people who have gone through that lab…but do not necessarily reflect what is normal for individual people. In my years of researching this kind of stuff, I have come to the conclusion that the hormonal labs (where there is not gland failure…ie cancer/tumor/atrophy/inflammation/cysts/etc) that odd levels are merely the body adjusting normally adjusting itself to whatever else is going on within us. For example, being sick with the flu, the body will create excess RT3..which slows us down so that we will rest and give our immune system a chance to heal itself…and this is what it should do. When the flu is gone, the RT3 naturally goes back to normal levels.
The problem is, by middle age…even the best diets are misguided (we tend to negate trends and fads 10 years after they start)…and def. We inject disease into people who then breathe it out infecting people with man-made germs that the body has no resources for. We have pollution we cannot avoid. In response, our bodies begin breaking down…we have illnesses that the medical system is clueless how to respond to (because they only know how to match symptoms to meds)…and we end up with odd labs that no one knows how to interpret.. Many will tell you how to…but as you found out through your own trial and error, they don’t really know either.
I am sorry that things are not more advanced…or that doctors don’t often use what they learned in med school about how our bodies actually work. I too wish I had better answers. I wish you the best, I hope something I shared helps.
PS: I spent 1,5 years on antibiotics…however, my digestion problems started before taking them. Most food I eat comes out clearly recognizable in the way corn does for most people.
That said, I have been hearing of a lot of people who are having the same issue and who haven’t had antibiotics.
Probiotics are the usual reccomend. They haven’t helped me.
Digestive enzymes are the second reccomend. They have only minimally helped me…and then, not really.
Fecal implant is the next thing they try. I have not tried this.
That said, I saw an odd video a while back where they put a camera in someone’s stomach when they ate ramen noodles and claim that even 36 hours later they are not broken down. They claim it is a preservative. Leads me to wonder is this preservative, or something like it, isn’t being put on a lot of the food out there.
In the mystery, and for what its worth, I digest processed food better than whole. Mangos, apples, orange juice, greens, grains, come outvirtually untouched.
Again, I wish I had more for you…sorry. I can only add to the wondering.
Best of luck.
Hi Faith,
Thank you for your response. I read your previous post on vitamin D and it’s interesting how active vitamin D can compete with T3 in the body. I’ve been consuming vitamin D that’s in hair supplement I take, which is about 670 iu per day. Maybe prolonged consumption of vitamin D has led to cause thyroid problems. I am going to see what other alternative I have for the hair supplement I am taking currently.
I completely agree with your statements about diet in general. I’ve never had issues in early 20’s, so I kept eating anything I want, including a lot of meat, no veggies, a lot of grains, and fried foods. Now that I am in mid 20’s, my body has been damaged quite a bit from bad diet habits I had in the past. This is very stressful and I hope somebody would have told me in advance.
I am going to get some blood test to see what is really wrong with my body. The test will include TSH, free T3, free T4, rT3, cortisol/adrenal levels, free testosterone, DHT, ferratin, and vitamin D 1,25 levels. I’ve been throwing shots in the dark for a while, hoping that random supplements I take would miraculously fix my issue. I am sick of getting bad results and additional shocks I am causing by throwing random treatments. I will report back when I have results from the lab. Thanks everybody.
Yes perfect plan!
And defo kick out gluten and corn, try just for 3_4 weeks, if you sense any improvement , continue, since this is natural help to your thyroid…and dont kick it before y have a plan how to substitute….dont substitute with rice:-) ….in huge amounts or potatoes:-) ……try looking for some LCHFbreads that you will bake instead and increase coocked vegetables and butter, olive oil and other fats, coconut oil is praised by benefits…..dont be afraid to eat fats:-)
Beeing 1.5 years on antibiotics is more then enough to ruin someones gut for a lifetime, restoring goof bacteria is hard task, because taking probiotics is like a massage, if you have back problems massage will only fix you short term, to make pain easier, but the underlying problem is les diversity…
We all have 3_4 kg of gut bacteria!this is 10x more genes, and that gut bacteria is like our second brain, those creatures make you like some food more then the other, this is a problem of chicken and egg, if you will eat sugars you end up with such bacteria, but once you loose some of the species becasue of taking antibiotics for such a long time….its veery hard …to get it back, and this is only now beeing studied
Maybe going to some ecological farms with domestick animals could help restore some of the bacteria…..like workingnon a farm, earing fermented food, sauerkraut every day….this is what i would start
And taking system enzimes, betaine hcl’pepsine, and such stuff i agree is just mild short term help…nothingn serious
And digestion of this kind, when you miss gut bacteria defo cant be solved by thyroid hormon replacement of any kind
I have had ‘CFS’ for 14 years. and then recently found out I had low T3 free and subesequently low oestrogen and progesterone. I have been treated with thyroxin tablets and have been using oestrogen and prog creams to try and get my levels back to normal I am a lot more capable physically than I have been for years , though still get tired easily/ feel hungover/ headaches. I am an aussi living in Denmark with a lack of resources here, as the health system is VERY against CFS and small minded when it comes to looking outside the box. I am being treated by a doc here, but would be grateful for new contacts. Does anyone have any contacts in DK that could help me?
I had undiagnosed hyperthyroidism for 3 1/2 years after an abscessed tonsil. Ramping up, my T3 was in the low range and T4 with high high normal.tsh was normal. Things were still not right with the low normal t3. I was saying things wrong without knowing it. And there were others symptoms-like tingling toes/legs. I suggested to the Dr cytomel. It made my heart race for about two hours. The doctor suggested time released compound t3 with my t4. I was much better. While on t3, I would have reactions-boils-from dental injections for example. I started taking my morning thyroid pill with purified Or distilled water. Wait one hour. And them eat an have coffee. Wait to take medication/vitamins for four hours. I am not taking T3 now and my t4 was reduced from 125 to 112. My new doctor is upset because my TSH is below normal. I told him if I took100 that my t3 would be out of range low. I feel great on 112 but tend to get pretty cold at 70°. I feel that if I took 5 µg T3 per day with my T4 that I would be so feel so good. Undiagnosed hypo was so bad for three years that I lost weight. I had arthritis in my fingers. I had bumps on my knuckles. I had Neck pain constantly. I was highly allergic to MSG. I had swelling from head to toe-eyes, face, chest cavity, ankles…. 112 pounds. I felt like I was 90 years old. I couldn’t walk to the corner of the sidewalk. I went hyper from taking prednisone prescribe for tennis elbow. The prednisone evidently Addressed an adrenal problem. When I went hyper. every ache and pain and all swelling went away. I remember telling my brother that I felt like superwoman. I could roll around in the bed again just stretching. Could Walk or run around the block again. It take from the experience that the aging could age more gracefully if on adequate levels of thyroid replacement. And those who are thyroid deficient could have a better quality of life if on adequate levels as well. This means having better than the minimum t3level. This means having t3, 1/4-1/2 within range. So, if the normal range is 1-32, wellness is a minimum of 8-16. Once on replacement, I believe the tsh means nothing unless it is too high. Tsh tells the thyroid gland to make t4/t/3. If taking thyroid replacement pills, the pill is in charge. I will find another dr if mine doesn’t understand. I have already been to an endocrinologist locally and to one at Vanderbilt. Some people just need to take the pill right-nothing for 1hour, no chlorine, bromide, fluoride, coffee or tea. If that doesn’t work…..add t3?
Initially in my comment, I meant hypothyroidism for 3.5 years
Hi Becky,
I agree, many people could enjoy a better quality of life if they had thyroid levels that were right for them.
I think that is the biggest challenge, is to get to the point where we can realize that our numbers may be different than the norm and yet still right for us.
Becky,
You mentioned Vanderbilt, so do you recommend whomever you saw there? I am looking for the right doc in or around Nashville. My free T3 is low even when I take meds.
My close friend is pushing for me to get an endocrinologist. I’ve always seen integrative or holistic physicians.
I was on Armour several years; found it to be stressing my body. A new doctor put me on Levothyroxine this summer; I got terrible insomnia; toyed with dosing; no change. I left that doctor for another doc’s Nurse Practitioner; she saw my free T3 was still too low. That was the first I’d known about what the free T3 number was supposed to do.
Am supposed to see her for a follow-up to last week’s bloodwork and she will probably recommend something T3 besides Armour. I can’t keep going to her because their clinic switches to direct-pay soon.
I’ve been off all meds a couple weeks, am having bad fatigue.
hello there, its not about what you were on but what doses….armour is unbalanced treatment it contains too much t3
have you ever tried anything along physiological lvls like taking 100t4+ 6 t3?
becasue if you take too much t4 your body will automaticaly fight against it making lower t3 if you then add too much t3 to that combination (like in armour)…you will overstress body…it cant get rid of so many redundant hormons….
taking too many make you feel fatigued as taking too little, but many times people take too many meds, what i have seen so far
My fluid retention improved markedly with bentonite clay. I use bentonite clay externally to detox. I smear it on my body, covering at least half my body, wait an hour while making sure it does not dry out, then go shower to remove it. It made me lose most of the fluid that my body retains, going back from size L pants to size M.
I have euthyroid sick syndrome, normal blood values and symptoms very much resembling hypothyroidism. I was very ill and not able to take care of myself anymore at the age of 22, suffering extreme fatigue, very much muscoskeletal pain, feeling very cold all day, and a lot more symptoms.
I have been taking dessicated thyroid for over the last 15 years, following the work of John lowe, which did improve my situation, but over the last 10 years, ive slowly become more sick again, leaving me to need more and more dessicated thyroid.
At my worst period (age 29), I had built up to 60 pills of Thyro-Gold a day, without any signs or overstimulation (hyperthyroidism) (the equivalent of 120 armour thyroid pills). I still had symtoms of hypothyroidism, but less than before.
This is an extremly high dose, and I cannot recommend it to anyone at all (this dose would kill a normal person) , but at the time I was very very ill, once again no longer able to take care of myself at all even inside the home (though still better than before I started the thyroid pills), the mainstream doctors said “your blood is good so we cant do anything, you just have to live with it” so I was very very desperate.
When at some point my brother stumbled upon new research I started taking iron, something I had not done for long, because I get a lot of bowel problems from it, and I started needing less and less thyroid pills. Currently I need only 1-3 Thyro- Gold pills a day, as long as I keep taking iron, I still suffer from a lot of hypothroid symptoms, but at least I can take care of myself inside the home, (I am still homebound).
This webpage seems to describe what I have, I have a lot of problems with inflammation (candida, leaky gut, sinus problems) however I am not sure how to treat these more permanenly. I drink a lot of Pau D’arco tea, which improved the candida, I get medicines for candida and parasites from my holistic doctor, but nothing seems to aleviate these problems for longer than just a short time. I also take probiotics for my bowel, unfortunately they are too expensive to take a higher dose. Each time one infection is treated, another will show up, my immune system does not seem to work very well. My holistic doctor does not know how to help me either, he does his best but none of the doctors seems to know how to really fix these problems, neither the thyroid problems, nor the repeat infections. This page may hold part of the answer.
I would very much like to try a diet to reduce inflammation, since that is something I never tried, but there are very little food producs I can eat, my digestion is very bad, I take digestive pills for this, but even on those the only food I can eat without getting ill after each meal is quinoa and raw or cooked vegetables, and once in a while some salt-less meat, but I can only eat it separately, in combination with the quinoa its too much.
I will print out these pages and take them to my holistic doctor,but if anyone has any additional advice on what I can do to combat any of these problems (or a part of the problems) advice is very, very welcome.
I would also like to come in contact with anyone who has similar problems, especially if they also are very ill.
Lila,
My heart just goes out to you and I am so sorry that you are sick and struggling. I too have been sick and struggling for years, and like you trying to find answers. Yes, it is very discouraging how little doctors know…but many of their hearts are in the right place.
The poor immune system and chronic infections sounds similar to late stage Lyme disease. If you have the availablity of getting tests, you may want to run an CD57; C3a; and C4a. Quest does these…one of your docs may use Quest. Lyme tends to turn down the CD57. C4a tends to be high in Lyme (C3a in Lupus). I would run these before the cash-pay Lyme test…the standard Lyme screen only has a 35% chance of picking it up (so has far too many false negatives esp in late stages), the test you want is the Igenex one. It is $260 upfront, if you have non-aid health insurance they will reimburse you…so this is why I suggest running the other screening tests first to see if it is called for. For what it is worth, the symptoms of candida and Lyme are nearly identical.
As well, autoimmune stuff will give you low grade fevers. Have you had your ANA or FANA yet?? If not, you might want to see if that may be behind it.
All that said, the greatest help I got was from doing the 23andMe.com genetic test…but not in the way most people have. It is $99, but so well worth it. After the test you run it thru Genetic Genie (free) and get a basic report on genes you have that may be messed up. From there the general thing people do is take whatever they would make after the defects…however, that made me really much worse…so, I made a list of all the things the report said would be affected to see what, if anything, was truly affected…and asked my doctor to test them. Turns out I was not making a few things well…none of which are what current belief covered. For example, I don’t make the amino acid Taurine very well…and the supplementing of that has helped tremendously…went from using a walker and needing a wheelchair to being able to walk without a cane.
Like you, I also have digestion issues…in that most food I eat comes out untouched (like corn does for many people). And I have increasingly been hearing about a number of other people who are having a similar issue…also not really being helped by digestive enzymes or probiotics.
One the meat issue, you might consider grass-fed organic beef or I have found great success with lamb. That said, meat is said to cause inflammation.
Juicing might help…there are two schools of thought, one is juicer for no-fiber/just nutrients…the other is belnder for all the fiber…both have healing properties so it is just a matter of person experience or preference.
Dr. Joel Furman has a PBS special on the other day about an end to dieting and he mentions why the diets out there (ie Paleo) are harmful…he suggests similar to what you are eating…you might find it interesting. He goes heavy on the cruciferous veggies that are not so good for people with thyroid issues…and I don’t do well on greens…but other than that, he seems good.
Have you had a RT3 test??? If not, you may want to…when one is sick, their body often turns T4 into RT3 rather than T3. Too much (over the range) RT3 can make you feel poorly and hypo.
I know many practioners and people like dessicated thyroid…however, it is not preferrable to people who may have immune issues with their thyroid…as it is just more of the things the immune system is attacking. Don’t know if you know about a newer thyroid hormone called Tirosint, it is T4 without any fillers…and is by far the only one I have taken that didn’t make me feel yuk after. That said, I am on T3 only…and long for the day when my body can handle T4 again.
Hope something I said helps, again I am so sorry that you are going through all this…hang in there. The more you keep searching…you will, here and there, start piecing it together. <3
I read a post recently where someone (and I can’t remember who they were but they did a lot of researching of pub.med type articles) tried to find out the studies that supported or even suggested the idea that taking biological forms of thyroid hormone stimulated antibody formation which went on the attack the thyroid gland. They said they only found 1 study, done in the 80’s which actually showed taking NDT, WTE or whatever one calls it actually lowered anti-TPO levels.
Despite this, I’m sticking to the synthetics as I feel OK but if I ever did switch, it would be to the New Zealand bovine origin stuff. Even though I live in NZ, I think I’d have to get it from the USA. Annoying. As Faith has pointed out, the idea of taking the Armour pig stuff is pretty revolting due to the dreadful overcrowded pestilent conditions in which these poor animals are reared.
Faith-
Thanks for the great post. I have a few questions. I’ve done 23andme as well. It’s interesting. I had an OAT test done and I think, if I’ve read it correctly, I have a break in the Krebs cycle @ tartaric acid. (Doing this from memory here.) I did some reading and began taking taurine, seem to tolerate 1500mg daily the best. It has been a huge aid for me. But, I curious what on your 23andme pointed you in this direction. Can you share?
Also, if one is taking t3 only should a blood test show normal numbers for this or will it always be elevated? I’ve had a couple blood tests one taken when I didn’t take my dose in the AM that was 5.5 I think and one when I did take my med and it was 7.9! From what you’ve shared, it seems my liver isn’t getting rid of it or it’s too much. I’m slowly weaning off. I can’t say I’ve ever felt great on t3. Or any thyroid for that matter. I always thought I wasn’t taking enough. Now, I realize with a conversion issue, it may be something else entirely.
I found this to be a great explanation of conversion. It’s a complicated function in our body. Maybe this will help others to understand what’s going on…..
http://www.nahypothyroidism.org/deiodinases/
Thanks again, Diane
Hi Diane,
You ask some really good questions.
After the 23andMe, and the reports, my doctor kept trying all the usual supps that the “experts” say you should take only they made me worse. After about 8 of these tries, I made a list from the reports of all the things it said would be affected. Simple logic suggests that if someone had a double defect in the MTHFR that they would either be dead by middle age –or- some other gene/enzyme adds a methyl group to folate that they just simply don’t know about yet. Anyways, from that list I had my doctor test the things it said were affected to see what, if anything, were indeed affected.
It was these tests (UAA, OAT, Pharmasan’s Neuotransmitter test, and a few other assorted individual tests) that we found that I was high in Cystine and low in Taurine and Glutathione…the two things you would make after Cystine. Also high in Dopamine, high in Norepinephrine, and low in Epinephrine (aka adrenaline). Both of these are at the end of the Methyl Cycle…and neither are covered by the “experts.” We also found a corresponding imbalance of high Glutamate and low GABA which make each other.
Although I have been able to identify the exact enzymes I have issues with, there are no known treatments (yet)…and I have come to the conclusion that while it is really great to find the exact pathway that things are breaking down…that maybe all we are doing is watching the disease process up close. In other words, we are just seeing the process by which the body is down-regulating itself. Indeed, many of the other disease groups are finding particular patterns common among them. Rather than assuming the defects cause the disease…my view is that the disease is causing the defects…and that tending the particular defs is just mitigating the symptoms (sort of like pain meds helps one to deal, but doesn’t cure the cause of the pain).
Regarding the blood T3 tests and taking T3…yes, labs would likely be wonky. Mine tend to be, esp my TSH which goes all over the place from way too low to way high. Although, I suspect a hypothalamic/pituitary issue
What I know about the liver is this: When we eat, the liver takes about 4 hours to process the food we ate. During that time, it is not processing our hormones or not processing them well. This is why they say that sleep is restorative…it is not the sleep, but rather that we are not-eating so that the liver can finally balance our hormones. From what I know about Phil (from Fat Sick & Nearly Dead) and the juice fasting and the way his body just restored itself…I surmised that it was the extended fasting that allowed his liver to heal his body…and that the juicing simply let him extend the fast longer than one could if they were just taking water. Since people tend to eat multiple times throughout the day…the liver would be challenged to process the excess thyroid.
This could be good or bad depending on what one’s particular body was doing with it. Excess thyroid can cause bone loss (which maybe should be checked regularly if one is on extended T3 treatment)…or the minimal excess could keep one from going low. A doc from the Mayo tried to explain that taking T3 would cause spikes and drops (too high/too low) throughout the day…in which case that small excess is probably great. I side on the checking each year or every 6 months. As well, I have become familiar with how too much feels to me (which is similar to how too little feels with a slight variation) so I can keep my doses in check.
With all things there is a risk…and that includes T3 treatment. We each have to weigh them for ourselves. I know no way to have a consistent level throughout the day. I take it 10-12x a day. It is just one of the downsides of pills. I also tend to feel like our bodies compensate for that. I take an rx that is GABA (Baclofen) and it is pretty clear that my body knows when to expect it. I’d like to think it does the same with the thyroid.
That is a good description…thanks for linking it. One thing that no one has explained, and you may also experience with the genetic work…is that it can seem like the body sometimes only can use what is freshly available (as like with B12) and that the storage amounts (ie B12) the body doesn’t seem to access as well. I find this with thyroid, at least for myself, as my dose and need keeps increasing over the years.
There are issues with the description you linked…(referring to the D2 section) TSH is not regulated by T3 levels, it is regulated by the hypothalamus (which may be regulated by T3 levels). Also, if the pituitary was so easily thrown off, everyone’s bodies would be doomed. While it is true that doctors should not dose based on TSH…but this is not why. As well, it is making an odd chicken and egg argument…saying that being overweight/etc causes down regulation when indeed wonky hormones cause overweight/etc. Too little thyroid causes depression…not the other way around (unless depression is from other cause), antidepressants suppress thyroid (what makes thyroid-caused depression worse). TSH is not linked to conversion of T4 into T3…TSH instructs the thyroid to produce T4 and then carries the T4 into the bloodstream. Most of the rest seems ok. It is difficult to get exact information when studies or papers make wrong assumptions (ie Vit D studies using the wrong Vit D tests).
It is a lot like the genetic stuff, causes the condition or is a result of the condition…all they can say for sure is that: low T3 occurs concurrent with this condition, not which caused which.
Anyways, hope this helps.
i want to add something
to thyroid hormons functioning
you said it : TSH instructs the thyroid to produce T4 and then carries the T4 into the bloodstream.
this is becasue it goes like this TSH rises when there is fall in total T4….and low ft4….so TSH is more regulated by t4 lvls…..this is why when you go t3 only some patients experience rise in TSH if they are not on supressive doses but small one…becasue body needs t4 wich is storage of energy not t3
t3 in normal thyroid patients with no other illneses should be used in physiological amounts, i think these are up to 12 mcg ….
its no wonder to me that someone on t3 only cant feel well enough, becasue one has to have ft4 to ft3 between 3-4 ratio……and normal blood levels, and even then if there are malnutrition evidences in the body, like low ferritin, low b12, low d3…..person can not feel energetic, becasue its not the thyroid hormons only that determines our stamina , but the overal composition of the body so to say!
its a complex issue, and it takes time to heal and mineral vitamin defficiencies to fill up!!
this takes complete chnage to dieting, becasue its many times bad diet that led to thyroid problems…….
one should eat liver 1x weekly minimum! who eats it?
these are things i have learnt from my own body
i take 6 mcg of t3 plus 100 t4……..this gives my blood results balanced……
i really dont think for majority of patients its wise to override those blood tests becasue thats moving away from logic, and there must be a good reason why to do that….many of patients just try to heal everything with thyroid hormons in 1 day!
Hi Ivy,
You are doing well at putting everything together. Just a few pieces to add.
The pituitary (TSH) is not regulated by T4 or T3…instead it is the Hypothalamus that is: the hypothalamus then uses Thyrotropin-Releasing Hormone (TRH) to tell the pituitary to release TSH, which then tells the thyroid.
T4 is not-needed by the body. T4 is the storage form of T3…and its only use is that it lasts longer in our system than T3. T4 must be converted into T3 in order to be used by the body.
Many people have low-grade undiagnosed health issues and often the only abnormal lab they have is their thyroid labs leading many to believe (falsely) that their issue is the thyroid…and even though it can look that way, their thyroid is functioning perfectly fine…only it is functioning in response to some other underlying health issue. In many of these cases, attempts to correct the thyroid often prove futile.
The most telling sign of this is normal TSH, normal T4, low T3.
Many people will mistake those labs to mean that they have a conversion issue.
I have seen no evidence that iron has anything to do with thyroid function. Iron is, however, caused to become abnormal in underlying illness. Because underlying illness is the cause of both factors…many assume incorrectly that they can fix each other.
In many people who benefit from B12 have normal levels of B12…there is no medical explanation for this (yet). I suspect that this has something to do with the body having a breakdown in its ability to use what it has. I believe that this is similar to what some might call thyroid resistance (that is not otherwise explained by excess RT3, Vit D, or genetic receptor defects)…in other words, someone has normal T3 but is still genuinely hypothyroid…failure to be able to use what one has. I do not (yet) know the exact pathway by which that happens.
Vitamin D is something the body makes…and has no bearing on one’s nutritional status. That said, it is poorly understood even in the medical community that should know better leading to gross misunderstanding in the public. The test that they run for Vit D status is called 25,D this is the storage form of Vit D comparable to T4. The 25,D test tests for D3 and D2 and adds them together. D3 is called Cholecalciferol (everyone can check their Vit D3 bottle)…D2 is called Ergocalciferol). BOTH of these are storage forms and must go through 2 conversions in order for the body to use it.
1) Cholecalciferol (Vit D3) is converted in our bloodstream into Calcidiol; then
2) Calcidiol finds its way to our kidneys where we convert it into Calcitriol…the ONLY usable form of Vitamin D
The test for Calcitriol is the 1,25 D test.
Here is where the confusion comes in (besides that people do not have the correct information to begin with)…people who have a certain genetic code (many have this) and/or have a bacterial infection…will over-make the enzyme called CYP27B1 which converts the D3 you take (or make from cholesterol in the fat under your skin in the sun) into the active Vit D Calcitriol…so as to over-convert it.
Those who over-convert Vit D will ALWAYS look low on the Vit D test. This is why the 1,25 D test is required in order to assess one’s true levels of Vit D. In the cases of those with bacterial infections, because Vit D is an endocrine steroid and immune suppressant, it is imperative that they assess their 1,25 D before ever considering taking a Vit D supplement.
Also, I take T3 only and do just fine on it. I have been on T3 for over a year and see no ill effects from not having T4. For my own self, my personal experience negates the old thinking that thought T4 was needed for anything…but that is just my view.
Hope this helps. 🙂
hello Faith, oh i replied to some of the things in the reply below….but let me add few more….i think that are crucial from my experience
1. low grade inflamation can be casued by thyroid not working properly!
this is what i noticed when i reduced my hormon levels….so i was on 150 mcg t4 this brought me hyper…even all above 75 mcg i had hyper symptoms, but my TSH was stable below 1 on 150 mcg dose…when i reduced it to 100 t4 + 3mcg t3….so this is quite some reduction….i experienced low grade inflamation back! starting from my thyroid that was struggling to make up for the hormons i need…my lymph nodules appeared! and i had them constantly enlarged before i ever took thyroid hormon therapy! had them for years
so saying which is first…i would say this: thyroid hormon therapy that is not balanced will always have as a result low grade inflamation
there is logic behind it too, the body is not clearing from the system all it should in time, is constantly under low stress!
2. i want to say i dont agree that body needs only t3. there is a reason why there is mechanims t4 then t3…and i dont know exactly what that reason is except that some tissues in body want to have their own pace of t3 , and some tissues need the constant t3 thats been secreted on a daily basis by our thyroid!! so no conversion at all!!
so the logic is: if your thyroid is broken you should only replace those amounts issued by thyroid and not more!
this is my experience….why?
becasue if you will add lets say 20 mcg of t3 the body will instantly reduce your ft4! and this happens SOOO many times, i have seen it..its normal way body responds to too many t3 even if you take no t4 with it!
this is how body protects from too much ft3…..there are exceptions to the rule,
what has happened to me when i was taking 25 mcg of t3…this was clasic hyper, my hungar grow to the extremes, i was getting huge sugar blood spikes, and then panick attacks triggered by sudden drop in sugar lvls……i got dhiarrea!
so my understanding is…that t3 is not helping at all digestion its the t4!….also t3 messes around with some neurotransmitersin brain!! so one gets exchnages from euphoria!..then disspair
but for majority of people i think its very good to keep their body as they were, and not depleating from t4…becasue some of them will notice after 80 days they can not go without t4…..for whatever reason there may be…..
also i think body is able to adjust to whatever you give to it! i could have gone t4 only on 150 mcg t4 for who knows how long…..and suffer not even knowing there could be better until i would probably get some sort of dementia or whatever…..after 10 years or 15…..
oh i am firm believer that thyroid problem is mostly result of bad diets for years! and in critical period of life from 14-22 years old! many people have no idea what good diet is, becaue its extinct from our habits!
so low iron is going hand in hand with low metabolism caused by low thyroid!
i evidence this..and also evidence how hard it is to replenish the lost balance! becasue it only says this, my kitchen brough me there…..digestion!! not working well in so many thyroid patients why?…digestion is the root cause of all……and its all like one vicious circle, my ferritin and iron lvls improved after i started taking thyroid hormon replacement it goes slow! but my ferritin went from 6 to 34! this is huge improvement and most of that came from chnagning diet ….starting to eat bit better but that was not enough: lean meat is not enough!……then taking thyroid therapy improved my digestion a lot! ….then i hope now when i finally got good thyroid therapy …it will imrpve even more becasue i notice my appetite is going back to where it was longlong time ago when i was healthy person …….thyroid causes bad protein digestion….and its all so interconnected…..this is how low iron comes in place too!! what happens is this
1st you become low in iron, minerals vitamins..
2nd your thyroid starts falling apart in lets say 2-3 years time…
3rd you go hyper first then hypo when things gone so that you can see it on the ultrasound
oh on t3 only there is a guy paul robinson who wrote a book, he is on t3 only for 17 years, so there are people who can do it…..i only firmly believe they are exceptions to the rule
i know my personal experience , 25 mcg of t3 was like living hell to me 🙂 and it was not easy to spot on it showed only after 8 days 🙂 like problem it was together with 100t4, but i was on 150 t4 before….
also when you dont take t3 you fall instantly….not taking t4 is no big deal…i love that cushion it provides, also there is no reason for me to go t3 only….i know you have lyme and this is something not connected to thyroid…..but i dont think t4 and t3 are so easily interchnagable..becasue i have seen how too much t3 makes me another person, this is like face lifting! yes you can do it…but is this ok?
oh thanks for vitamin d explanation this is one of the most valuable info i took from reading you here…there are other stuff too 🙂 i read many researches on vit D and its all still fresh, but i think i remember its all so not well researched yet….i must check my 1.25 form….becasue my 25 form shows i am little under..and when i supplemented i got moles sensitivity! it was just not coincidence i repeated the experiment in short period of time and it got even sooner and it was so that my mole would hurt!….so i stopped supplementing
the thing is…vitamin d is connected to thyroid regulation in a way i dont understand ….but i read study on it too…..it was noticed that TSH varies according to seasonal effect, and my idea was it has to do with the sun and maybe citamin d lvls…but forgot must repeat the readings 🙂
also vitamin d is not converted only in kidneys but in liver too 🙂 ..i think i read that too….
and one veeery interesting thing i found…there are rats that naturaly have no vitamin d since they live under ground called naked mole rats…they have 0 vitamin D and no cancer, and live very long!! this is why tehy did so much research on role of vitamin d on cancer…and trying to connect d3 status …..but apparently the best vitamin d one can get is from the sun 🙂 and one more info i remember 10-20000 i.j. one can get per day from sun!! 🙂 so its huge!! :)…also the VDR vitamin d receptors are all over the body….and some say good vitamin d lvls are needed for the good energy lvls, this is why its so often mentioned together with thyroid, as well as iron…becasue thyroid affects metabolism…hence the connection….also iron is needed ingerdient for oxidative metabolism….absorbed in tiny space in duodenum! and if one has bad digestion no way he/she can replenish iron,
also vitamin d is just like thyroid essential for functioning of everything in the body, i think this is not just pure coincidence those 2 receptors are in all cells and they have similar form of working from prohormon to active hormon 🙂
Faith,
Can you tell me where you live? I want to go on T3 only, but my 2 doctors won’t agree to it. I take 125 mcg. of levothyroxine daily and 5 mcg. of T3 (liothyronine) daily, and I want to try higher levels of T3 (30-50 mcg. daily), WITHOUT levothyroxine. Thanks!
Hi Diane,
You ask some really good questions.
After the 23andMe, and the reports, my doctor kept trying all the usual supps that the “experts” say you should take only they made me worse. After about 8 of these tries, I made a list from the reports of all the things it said would be affected. Simple logic suggests that if someone had a double defect in the MTHFR that they would either be dead by middle age –or- some other gene/enzyme adds a methyl group to folate that they just simply don’t know about yet. Anyways, from that list I had my doctor test the things it said were affected to see what, if anything, were indeed affected.
It was these tests (UAA, OAT, Pharmasan’s Neuotransmitter test, and a few other assorted individual tests) that we found that I was high in Cystine and low in Taurine and Glutathione…the two things you would make after Cystine. Also high in Dopamine, high in Norepinephrine, and low in Epinephrine (aka adrenaline). Both of these are at the end of the Methyl Cycle…and neither are covered by the “experts.” We also found a corresponding imbalance of high Glutamate and low GABA which make each other.
Although I have been able to identify the exact enzymes I have issues with, there are no known treatments (yet)…and I have come to the conclusion that while it is really great to find the exact pathway that things are breaking down…that maybe all we are doing is watching the disease process up close. In other words, we are just seeing the process by which the body is down-regulating itself. Indeed, many of the other disease groups are finding particular patterns common among them. Rather than assuming the defects cause the disease…my view is that the disease is causing the defects…and that tending the particular defs is just mitigating the symptoms (sort of like pain meds helps one to deal, but doesn’t cure the cause of the pain).
Regarding the blood T3 tests and taking T3…yes, labs would likely be wonky. Mine tend to be, esp my TSH which goes all over the place from way too low to way high. Although, I suspect a hypothalamic/pituitary issue
What I know about the liver is this: When we eat, the liver takes about 4 hours to process the food we ate. During that time, it is not processing our hormones or not processing them well. This is why they say that sleep is restorative…it is not the sleep, but rather that we are not-eating so that the liver can finally balance our hormones. From what I know about Phil (from Fat Sick & Nearly Dead) and the juice fasting and the way his body just restored itself…I surmised that it was the extended fasting that allowed his liver to heal his body…and that the juicing simply let him extend the fast longer than one could if they were just taking water. Since people tend to eat multiple times throughout the day…the liver would be challenged to process the excess thyroid.
This could be good or bad depending on what one’s particular body was doing with it. Excess thyroid can cause bone loss (which maybe should be checked regularly if one is on extended T3 treatment)…or the minimal excess could keep one from going low. A doc from the Mayo tried to explain that taking T3 would cause spikes and drops (too high/too low) throughout the day…in which case that small excess is probably great. I side on the checking each year or every 6 months. As well, I have become familiar with how too much feels to me (which is similar to how too little feels with a slight variation) so I can keep my doses in check.
With all things there is a risk…and that includes T3 treatment. We each have to weigh them for ourselves. I know no way to have a consistent level throughout the day. I take it 10-12x a day. It is just one of the downsides of pills. I also tend to feel like our bodies compensate for that. I take an rx that is GABA (Baclofen) and it is pretty clear that my body knows when to expect it. I’d like to think it does the same with the thyroid.
That is a good description…thanks for linking it. One thing that no one has explained, and you may also experience with the genetic work…is that it can seem like the body sometimes only can use what is freshly available (as like with B12) and that the storage amounts (ie B12) the body doesn’t seem to access as well. I find this with thyroid, at least for myself, as my dose and need keeps increasing over the years.
There are issues with the description you linked…(referring to the D2 section) TSH is not regulated by T3 levels, it is regulated by the hypothalamus (which may be regulated by T3 levels). Also, if the pituitary was so easily thrown off, everyone’s bodies would be doomed. While it is true that doctors should not dose based on TSH…but this is not why. As well, it is making an odd chicken and egg argument…saying that being overweight/etc causes down regulation when indeed wonky hormones cause overweight/etc. Too little thyroid causes depression…not the other way around (unless depression is from other cause), antidepressants suppress thyroid (what makes thyroid-caused depression worse). TSH is not linked to conversion of T4 into T3…TSH instructs the thyroid to produce T4 and then carries the T4 into the bloodstream. Most of the rest seems ok. It is difficult to get exact information when studies or papers make wrong assumptions (ie Vit D studies using the wrong Vit D tests).
It is a lot like the genetic stuff, causes the condition or is a result of the condition…all they can say for sure is that: low T3 occurs concurrent with this condition, not which caused which.
Anyways, hope this helps. 🙂
Hi Faith –
Thank you for your in-depth comment. I’ve been off line and will be again as I am doing some travel but wanted you to know I read and appreciated your input.
Recently, I’d tried to up my cytomel and I could tell my body definitely didn’t like it due to symptoms. After reading your explanation and a few other things, I decided to go off t3 and see what happens.
It’s so weird. Other than when I get too much in my body, I can’t tell any difference taking it or not taking it. I was taking it four times a day at a total of 37.5 mcg. At one time I was at 50mcg but a naturpath told me to lower it and I was feeling awful so listened.
Anyhow, I believe inflammation is the culprit for me now. I’ve endured a ton of severe stress for the past twenty years. Much has been alleviated, at least for now. I’m finding tart cherry juice is being very helpful along with a lot of magnesium and P5P. That’s all I’m taking now but may need to add a tad of B12 in some form. I’m cmpd hetero and my B12 was lower than I’d like on my last test.
I plan to do a good amount of testing in about a month to see what has happened in my body since changing everything. My energy is decent! My pain is much lessened! Now I’m hoping some of this weight will come off.
Thanks again for all your helpful input.
Take care,
Diane
Aww Diane, thanks.
Sounds like a good plan…I’d love to hear the results. 🙂
hello,
so this is what i can confirm low inflamation comes from broken thyroid, i got the symptoms back when i reduced my therapy and my TSH went from 1 to 2.22 in 30 days….
at the same time my old synus problems came back and signs of low inflamation that show up as enlarged lymph nodes…on my neck under armpits…and strange abdominal pain, like my all body went inflamed!
so to sort these problems i am sure, becasue i sorted those one has to have TSH back to 1.5 or lower…(for normal patients who have this hipotalamus pituitary axis working)….or sort the thyroid hormon lvls ratio in the blood first, then those symptoms will go back
from what i have concluded here, i used to have bad digestion before too, it sorted out big time when i started taking hormonal therapy! and from what i have seen people with really bad digestion who dont metabolize food at all_ like faith says food comes out untouched….this is special case and maybe those patients not doing well on t4 for the digestion reasons….dont know just did notice link between very bad digestion and thyroid problems even with taking hormons…
also meet does not cause inflamation! its a myth…i can confrim that when i started eating more meet and fat my overall body inflamation DECREASED……
from every signle person you can learn maximum 90% 10% of what each one of us say is probably VERY WRONG
Hi Ivy,
I think it differs between people. I also think it can be hard to tell information apart some just compare red meat to fish…as opposed to meat verses vegetable. So careful sifting through the information out there is necessary.
All vegetable diets lower inflammation suggesting that meat/starch diets increase it or keep it there. For what it is worth, I eat meat and I have inflammation…I also eat a lot of fruit. I know that if I have dairy products, I am in significantly more pain for 48 hours.
That said, Chris here wrote an article about it with some interesting information: http://chriskresser.com/does-red-meat-cause-inflammation
hello Faith,
oh the article is goo as all Chris articles are good becasue he makes fool portray of pro and con, from all angles
but this is the issue: thyroid patients need to get enough protein in the body! and this can only be done via eating meat!
now where is the problem?
the problem is we eat the same kind of meat all the time!
read the article about liver from Chris too 🙂 our ancestors used to eat a lot more variety! and throw lean meat to the dogs, and eat only organ meat, like liver kidneys..skin….this is why dr ray peat suggests eating gelatine! casue you have better balance of different amino acids in those other parts!
we twisted eating habbits and this is why the incidence of thyroid problem is rising on top of twisted living lyfstyle…
this is what i know for myself! my thyroid got broken when i was not giving enough good nutrients to my body over long period of time!….and there is no way one can feel super energetic before fixing the whole package …slowly over time,it can take 2-5 years beeing on balanced thyroid hormons eting good food to fix energy issues! if nothing else broken….
and many patients who are on t3 only just never hit good therapy they went like 100+25 or more and then concluded oh t4 not working so kick it out..and if t3 only is the remedy for its very short half life they should have felt great then immediately and this should have lasted…its know that one can feel good on t3 only for a limited amount of time up to 15 weeks
and yes i would agree there are differences between people…some like more veggies , some more diary some more fish…its becasue of different environmnets we all live
you know for many things one needs just good logic, you can never go wrong if you eat ALL moderately!…and listen to what your body says this is the ultimate! eating is something that should be instinctive….
i started feeling so much better when i kicked out white bread and started making a bread that is based on flax seeds with 6 eggs and cottage cheese, and added more protiens, and vegetables into my diet….the inflamation went down
now the thing is they do hybrid seeds! you never know what they will invent that may become new source of inflamation in the body like that ATI protein in wheat! that is the real huge inflamatory molecule! and not gluten…its the most recent study you can look it up on sciencedirect or other page!
thats why i am not really interested in kicking out any food group…one can spend a lifetime learning but i must eat as of today :)….and taking good protein is simply essential for anyone who has broken thyroid!
oh one more thing, you said you dont digest fat well?
do you know the reason for that?
usually people who are diabetic dont digest fat…..
i noticed i love fats now more then sugars…and read that fat craving is symptomatic of hypo patients
Hi Ivy,
I am not sure what this post is linked to or who you are addressing it to…so I might be off by chiming in if it wasn’t directed at me (my apologies).
I have not found the cause of my digestion issues (yet). However, I have since encounted 10 people who also are no longer digesting many foods. One woman who is dying even after having had the fecal transplant.
Fat digestion is done by an enzyme the pancreas makes.
That said, I recently happened across a video of a pill camera in the stomach of someone who ate Ramen Noodles…not only did it say that after 36 hours (I am sort of suspect of that) the noodles still were not broken down. The interesting part was that they were connecting this to the preservative being used on the noodles. This led me to suspect (and I actually highly suspect it) that something being put on our food (maybe even just to clean it) is causing it not to be digested.
It is very disconerting to me to hear so many people relating the same story regarding not-digesting. Recently saw a GI doctor who said straight off that they can’t do anything about the digestion. At this point I only minimally process bread (although I feel super yuk eating), necterines (that are no longer good/in season), and meats minimally (although don’t want to be eating. Romaine lettuce and pinapples are suppose to have natural digestive enzymes in them…and yet both come out untouched.
Anyways…hope it answered your question.
hello Faith,
oh i have come very quickly ahead of many things i did not know before.
1st right move was finding good combination that put my ft4 to ft3 ratio in balance.
I must disagree when you say many people have lowt3 syndrome.
We have to dofferentiate 2 things: a ) do they take t4 or any other therapy b) is that low t3 , normal t4 and normal TSH what was found before they ever took any thyroid h.therapy
this is crucial! becasue i dont agree many people have low t3 syndrome!
most people have just thyroid issue. and they rarely end up online, and then there is this first problem, i had too
where low t3 suddenly appears becasue of unbalanced thyroid hormon therapy i.e. going above physiological doses with t4 medication! my ft3 dropped immedately as i hit 100 mcg t4!! this is not a coincidence! since then it never recovered….
so it can be just like i explained that body fights agains excess of t4 hormones…by reducing ft3 , producing more of rt3….to keep body from going too much hyper! and in that situation i was having symptoms of hyper: sweating, headaches….and symtoms of hypo :brain fogg,fatugue, sleeping problems
these are 2 very improtant thigns to differentiate, so adding small amount of t3 to therapy can easily correct the low t3….when i added only 3 mcg to my t4 my ftr jumped from 3 to 4! it was 4.4 before i ever started medicating
so telling that body doesnt need t4 and needs only t3 i would not agree, becasue WE DONT know….noone understands that issue so well to claim this….its like every cell in our body has its own logic, and having t4 is needed so many of those different parts can regulate t3 conversion as they like, also look how every cell in the body has 2 receptors:thyroid h and vitamin d hormons! and both of the 2 have the prohormon version and hormon version!
there is too much unknown there so that anyone can claim we dont need t4 , ofcourse we do, becasue t3 sets the same pace for all cells in the body and maybe this is not how its supposed to be?
yes i know hypotalamus is the master mind and pituitary is sort of manager, if hypotalamus is CEO :)…..i know this, i just saw that my TSH goes up when my total t4 went lower! body is trying hard to secure enough of t4…that is called energy storage prohormon..because t3 must kept constant….should not vary too much becasue of sensitive heart muscles..
but then when you look thyroid, it secrets those 4-6 mcg of t3….all the other conversion goes in tissues…so what normal thyroid only patients should do is replicate what thyroid is secreting and not the total body production of t3 that is around 30 mcg t3 that i heard? but not sure of that info…never checked…if thats at all available or known fact?
this is my understanding based on my hypothyroid experience! and i have been seriously hypo for over a decade before i realized i have broken thyroid….number one casue i think is malnutriton!
digestion issues are very much connected to thyroid problems….since you said you can not take t4……i must tell you my digestion improved remarkably when i started taking t4 only!! in low doses…..it was very significant chnage…however low t3 makes personnot digest proetins well…..so only until i made good balance i digest proteins well now as well! and dont need betaine hcl supplements