Choline and TMAO: Eggs Still Don't Cause Heart Disease | Chris Kresser

Choline and TMAO: Eggs Still Don’t Cause Heart Disease

by Chris Kresser

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A recent study by published in the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) has proposed a new link between eggs and coronary heart disease (CHD) that doesn’t involve cholesterol. A team of researchers, led by Dr. Stanley Hazen, showed that dietary choline—a nutrient found largely in eggs, beef liver and other animal foods—is metabolized by bacteria in our gut and then converted by the liver into TMAO.

They demonstrated this with a “choline challenge:” feeding volunteers two large hard-boiled eggs (with approximately 250 mg of choline each) along with 250 mg of supplemental choline that was tagged with a heavy isotope. The isotope acts like a chemical “label” that allowed the researchers to track what happened to the choline after it was ingested. Their data did indeed show an increase in both labeled TMAO and total TMAO (in urine and blood) in the volunteers after they consumed the eggs and supplemental choline.

In a second study, Dr. Hazen’s group showed that increased levels of TMAO in the blood are associated with cardiovascular disease (CVD). The researchers followed roughly 4,000 adults for three years. At the end of the study period, those with the highest levels of TMAO had a 2.5-fold increased risk of heart attack, stroke and death.

On the surface this sounds like very bad news for omnivores. But let’s take a closer look at the studies to see if it’s really time to swap your morning eggs for a tofu scramble.

Do Choline-Rich Foods Increase TMAO Levels?

Dr. Hazen’s team did show a temporary increase in total TMAO after eating eggs. However, as Dr. Chris Masterjohn pointed out to me in an email dialog, the researchers’ own data show that there’s no way that the “choline challenge” could have contributed to this increase in total TMAO. If it had, we would expect to see an initial increase in labeled TMAO followed by an increase in labeled TMAO. This would indicate that the labeled choline supplement (that participants ate with the eggs) had been metabolized by the gut bacteria and then converted into TMAO in the liver.

But that’s not what happened. I re-created Figure 1C and 1D from the study. Figure 1C (below) shows an increase in total serum TMAO at one hour after the choline challenge. But by hour four, total TMAO is back to baseline and by hour 8 it’s even below baseline (i.e. the participants had lower TMAO at 8 hours than they did before they ate the eggs/choline).

Figure 1C

However, Figure 1D (below) shows that labeled TMAO did not increase at all until hour four, and it didn’t increase significantly until hour six! This shows that the eggs and supplemental choline the participants ate had nothing to do with the increase in total TMAO that occurred one hour after the challenge.

figure 1D

What’s more, the researchers didn’t mention that other commonly eaten foods have a much more significant impact on TMAO than eggs. A 1999 study tested the effects of 46 different foods on the urinary excretion of TMAO in 6 human volunteers. (1) Eggs had no effect on TMAO excretion compared to a light control breakfast, yet 19 out of 21 types of seafood tested did. In fact, halibut generated over 53 times as much TMAO as eggs! This is not surprising, because although all species of seafood contain lower amounts of choline than eggs, they do contain trimethylamine and TMAO. Dr. Hazen’s team was aware of this study, because they referenced it briefly in the discussion section of the NEJM paper. They acknowledged that “TMAO has been identified in fish” and “the ingestion of fish raises urinary TMAO levels.” But remarkably, they did not explain how much greater fish’s impact on TMAO was when compared to eggs.

Finally, this paper did not prove that eating choline-rich foods (or any other foods) increases TMAO levels over time. In fact, the researchers themselves seem to suggest this is unlikely in the discussion section of the paper.

They said: “the high correlation between urine and plasma levels of TMAO argues for effective urinary clearance of TMAO.” In other words, even if eating food does increase total TMAO levels, most people are able to quickly and efficiently clear that TMAO from their blood by excreting it in the urine. This makes it doubtful that dietary factors alone explain chronic elevations in TMAO.

Instead, there are several other factors that are more likely to explain such an increase, including:

  • Impaired urinary clearance of TMAO due to impaired kidney function. This is at least partially supported by data in the NEJM paper. Those with the highest levels of TMAO had an average glomerular filtration rate (GFR) of 69 mL/min. According to National Kidney Foundation guidelines, a GFR between 60–89 ml/min is indicative of a reduced capacity to filter blood through the kidneys. (2)
  • Differences in the gut microbiota that predispose toward increase TMAO production. Previous work by Dr. Hazen’s group has shown that people with higher levels of Prevotella bacteria in their gut produce higher levels of TMAO. (3) (Interestingly enough, other research has shown that consumption of whole grains—not animal products—is associated with higher levels of Prevotella bacteria.) (4)
  • Enhanced conversion of trimethylamine to TMAO in the liver. An enzyme called Fmo3 carries out this conversion, and its activity is affected by genetic factors, iron or salt overload, and a number of common pharmaceutical drugs used to treat arthritis, GERD and infections. (5)
  • Diabetes and metabolic syndrome. Fmo3 activity is upregulated in cases of insulin resistance and insulin deficiency. (6)

If food really did make a significant contribution to TMAO levels, and high TMAO levels cause heart disease, then we’d expect to see much higher rates of CHD among people who eat more fish—since fish has a much greater effect on TMAO than eggs. Yet this is the opposite of what studies indicate: Eating more fish (especially cold-water, fatty fish) has consistently been shown in both observational and randomized controlled trials to reduce the risk of death from heart disease. (78)

Do Choline-Rich Food Cause Heart Disease?

At the end of their paper, Dr. Hazen’s group cautions against “excessive consumption of dietary phosphatidylcholine and choline” and recommends a high-fiber, vegetarian diet as a means of protecting your heart health.

Yet as I’ve argued above, they failed to present convincing evidence that eating eggs significantly increases TMAO over time—especially when compared to other foods like fish. Moreover, if eating choline-rich foods did increase the risk of heart disease (via TMAO or any other mechanism), we’d expect to see higher rates of CHD in those that eat more eggs. Yet numerous studies have failed to find any such association. For example, a meta-analysis of prospective studies involving a total of 474,000 participants followed from 8 to 22 years published in the British Medical Journal found no association between higher egg consumption (up to one per day) and CHD or stroke. (9) An analysis of data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Study found an inverse association between egg consumption and stroke, and a cohort study from Japan found that consumption of animal products including eggs was associated with reduced risk of death from stroke. (1011) The lack of association—or inverse association—between egg consumption and CHD is even more impressive when you consider that those who eat more eggs are also more likely to smoke and be physically inactive. (12)

Some studies suggest that eggs may even prevent heart disease. Egg consumption leads to the formation of larger, less dense LDL and HDL particles, which may be protective against atherosclerosis. (13) Eating eggs frequently may even lead to lower cholesterol; one study found that those eating four or more eggs per week had lower total serum cholesterol than those eating one or fewer per week.  (14)

This same study found that egg consumers had diets higher in nutrients that have been shown to reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease compared to non consumers, including vitamins E, B12 and folate.

Finally, as I pointed out above, some research suggests that consuming large amounts of whole grain increase Prevotella bacteria in the gut, which were associated with the highest levels of TMAO in Dr. Hazen’s previous study on TMAO. If this is the case, consuming large amounts of fiber from whole grains may actually increase the risk of heart disease.

The hypothesis that increased serum TMAO is associated with heart disease is interesting and should be investigated further. But the data presented by Dr. Hazen’s group doesn’t support the conclusion that dietary choline is a major cause of increased TMAO, nor does it support their advice to avoid choline-rich foods like eggs, liver, beef and pork.


Join the conversation

  1. Trimethylamine-N-oxide (TMAO): a compound produced by bacteria in the stomach that appears to correlate with risk of heart disease, according to preliminary studies. TMAO is produced in the body from egg yolks and red meat. Researchers believe that it affects the body’s metabolism of cholesterol, leading to enhanced development of plaque on blood vessel walls, and can increase risk of heart disease. Studies showed that people with high TMAO levels had higher risk for heart attack, heart disease, and stroke. Consumption of a heart-healthy diet has been shown to reduce TMAO levels.
    So it is ok to eat hard boil eggs and thank you for the recent article and is it worth it to get this blood test. Thank you

  2. The TMAO from 46 different food , done in 1999 was TMAO + trimethylamine. Chris Kresser did not say this above, he lumped the two together. The graph in the reference is TMAO + TMA ( trimethylamine) . Fish is high in the combination. It does not have the data on TMAO alone . Does the TMA you injest all convert to TMAO or is it excreted before it has the chance for this to happen. I think Chris has done a poor analysis. Make sure you read all of his references.

  3. New Study Published regarding TMAO on Jan 11, 2017. Here is the conclusion from the paper:
    “Conclusions: Elevated plasma TMAO levels, a pro‐atherogenic metabolite formed by gut microbiota metabolism of the choline group of PC, portend stronger incident risk of major adverse cardiovascular events and all‐cause death in patients with PAD, independent of traditional risk factors.”

    Here is the announcement on this research from Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine:

    Animal Products Increase Risk for Heart Attack and Stroke
    Trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO), a molecule produced during digestion of red meat, eggs, and dairy products, increases the risk for a fatal heart attack or stroke, according a study published in European Heart Journal. Researchers monitored TMAO levels for 530 participants and tracked the number of cardiac events. Those with elevated TMAO levels increased their risk for heart attacks or strokes and increased their risk of death from these events. Researchers suggest dietary interventions may mitigate these risks by reducing TMAO levels.

    Li XS, Obeid S, Klingenberg R, et al. Gutmicrobiota-dependent trimethylamine N-oxide in acute coronary syndromes: a prognostic marker for incident cardiovascular events beyond traditional risk factors. Eur Heart J. Published online January 11, 2017.

    You can read the research for yourself here at PubMed where all government research is published:

    The research itself was conducted at The Cleveland Clinic, one of the premier heart disease research and treatment hospitals in the world. People come from all over the world to be treated at The Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio.

  4. I still was not convinced that I should give up my meat or eggs. Dr. Hyman interviewed Dr. Kozen and the two amicably disagreed. Dr. Kozen is a vegetarian and Dr. Hyman is not. Both pretty smart guys. I think Dr. Kozen’s recommendation was not to eat meat or eggs more than once per week. I stand with Dr. Hyman on this one until more is reasearched on this.

  5. I would suggest that people read this very comprehensive study for themselves and not take Mr. Kresser’s interpretation at face value:
    For instance, his comment on gut bacteria of grain eaters vs meat eaters was a huge leap (african vs european children) and the bacteria was of the same genus as the one identified in the study but, as the study pointed out, different species of bacteria have different abilities to create TMAO from choline and carnitine.
    The difference between vegan TMAO levels and meat eater levels is striking.

  6. Hi-so I have a question about a medication I take, and eggs and also NSAIDS. (yeah, sounds a little convoluted)

    So I have been taking Nexium for GERD for the past few years. Recently I have had to buy generic Nexium online because I lost my health care and can’ t afford the name brand version anymore.

    My question is this, can I take generic Nexium and NSAIDS? I know I could take NSAIDS with name brand Nexium, but I dont know the difference. Especially because the place I have been ordering from has a picture of regular Nexium but says its generic. I’m really confused about this. Also, are eggs something I can eat with Nexium? I find sometimes it makes me queasy after taking the medicine if Ive eaten eggs. This is where I buy the meds:

    • This article is very effective. Choline obtainment alone is not associated with anything other than benefit to biophysiology, as is phosphatidylcholine. Numerous studies linking it to oncology invert mistakenly the association, misplace the association for survey of levels of these factors in nutrition before diagnoses, and often show post diagnosis benefit of choline in controlled studies sometimes within these same populations.

      The distinction is what is good vs not so good microbes. The literature is all over the place on that one. However, a broad spectrum antibiotic is the invariable answer. Microbes which do not produce trimethylamine would then be next, however, prebiotic and probiotic therapy are widely regarded as remediative. Particularly, studies have shown the solid carnitine, choline and phosphatidylcholine can induce increases in TMAO levels about 4 to 8 hours after ingestion. The levels degrade, although the second most useful indicator of susceptibility to sudden demise is TMAO, showing how important ph and vasoconstriction are at circumvention biophsyiological mechanisms to induce sudden demise. Asymmetrical dimethylarginine, trimethylamine-n-oxide, symmetrical dimethylargine, methylglyoxyl, impaired insuling management, c-reactive protein, D or L lacatate and NAD+/NADH imbalance, are principle cause of these, and are pervasively the cause of ‘natural causes’ of demise. If populations are provided choline, trimethylglyciine, L-arginine, phosphatidylcholine, niacin, other b vitamins, folate, glutathione, superoxide dismutase, and prebiotic and probiotic daily, these would pervasively be prevented. These could be supplemental, or provided by intraveneous methods or subcutaneously in therapeutic settings, although prebiotics and probiotics are ingested regardless of the setting. A broad spectrum antibiotic can supplant the prebiotic and probiotics therapeutically,
      Importantly, studies have shown the habitual ingesting of meat, pork, chicken, eggs of fish, particularly meat and pork, can product exhibition of remnants for many months if not years in digestive pathways. Thus, regular flushes of digestive pathways can be essential although care to not induce dependency is required. It is known that TMAO is exhibited in a slow wave function similar to how digestive pathway peristalsis functions. The more one ingests meats, pork and chicken, the more TMAO levels are upon each ingestion. Peristalsis works by having having neurotransmitters activating post synaptic neurons to induce a less than complete polarization change, such that the action potential threshold is not met. The induced polarization change, however, is not allowed to reset to its base at rest level which is something like 0.4 Ionic difference between intracellular and extracellular environment. The next neurotransmitter activation occurs before the resting level is reached, and these continue until the threshold level of is met, producing an action such as an opening of large combination of Ion channels within cellular entities in an area that causes a muscle contraction. There are more details to this, this is a high level perspective. The similar circumstances seems to occur with TMAO levels and ingestion of meat, chicken eggs or fish. There are some indications that choline is not involved, because trimethylamine is exhibited within phosphatidylcholine and potentially within l-carnitine. Microbes, however, are the cause of this phonomenon. Ingesting fish increases TMA and TMAO both because TMAO is exhibited in fish, although the other factors in fish such as omega fatty acids assist in reducing ancillary inflammation exhibited with TMAO. Again TMAO, like homocystine, asymmetrical dimethylarginine, symmetrical dimethylarginine, c-reactive protein, methylglyoxal, insulin cycles, D or L lactate, NAD+/NADH, general redox oxidation/reduction balances, and systemic ph, can induce all manner of detriment and are best characterized as imparting detriment through inflammation, tissue degradation, inhibition of nitric oxide, induction of vasconstriction, changing thrombosis/fibrin/fibronectin/fibrinolysis and changing ph, thereby converging as the principle causes of demise. These are all at the behavioral and metabolic nexus of choline and phospholipid pathway inadequacy which constitutes the principle progressive influence in the emergence and progression of pathology of any nature, as well as the principle culminating circumstance in any instance of demise. As this article is accurate in the way it handles choline being associated with detrimental outcomes, you are all accurate in affording this your attention and priority.

      • An excellent analysis!
        Apparently Dr. Hazen et al appear to be cherry picking the association between TMAO and the “heart disease”.
        Thank you (Researcher).
        BioMedical scientist

  7. Importantly, Nitrogen cycles may be essential factors in these circumstances. Nitrogen is a component of amino acids, Geneome and proteins. Nitrogen is the component which ADMA, TMAO and Homocysteine, Methylglyoxyl, diabetes, and other factors deprive from circulatory pathways to induce vasoconstriction. Nitrogen is affixed into the nutritional pyramid/continuum pervasively through bacteriological or microbial methane metabolism in root plant nutritional factors or other plants. B12 methylcobalamin provides Nitrogen, carbon, methyl groups, phosphorus, cobalt and oxygen. Choline and phosphatidylcholine provide more factors including adipose acids which are the principal components of cellular membranes. B12 methylcobalamin is required by kingdom animalia to produce methione through the only pathway of methionine synthesis which does not exhibit homocysteine as a byproduct. Plants have a b12 independent methionine synthase in such regard. b12, folate and Methyltetrahydrafolate pervasively only provide marginal benefit, although trimethylglycine provides more substantial benefit with similar limitation, because Choline is required to supply the Choline and phospholipid pathways. b12 supported MTHF and folate associated synthesis of methionine requires homocysteine obtained from choline metabolism or obtained from catabolism of cellular membranes by phospholipases during choline deficiency. The empirical causality of these are a choline deficiency, dependency upon external sources of choline and phosphatidychloline resultant of genetic impairment, as well as the affects of adma, tma, tmao, diabetes, and other factors which may all be cyclically exhibited as result of the progressive adaptations or pathology produced by a choline deficiency. Empirical causality is the standard for these analysis. Pervasively, impairment of adaptations to deficiency or pathology resultant of such deficiency that has become to be observed as typical biological function, may be the loci of analyses and therapeutics. Illustratively, Choline deficiency introduces P53, which induces G1 phase cellular cycle pause, and then either senescence, apoptosis, hypertrophy, segmentation of the pentose phosphate pathway, accumulation of glycogen in such segmented phase, impaired ability of glycine to deplete glucose, which changes pervasive cellular entities toward degradative outcomes. P53 impaired cellular material is then able to flourish, without the essential protecting, repairing and managing influence of P53 and without adequate material to produce additional membranes, DNA, extracellular factors, transcription products, neurotransmitters and other factors. 96+ percent of oncology exhibits impaired P53.

  8. The incipient Egg resultant influx of Choline and phosphatidycholine provides several circumstances. TMA is a constituent molecule within Choline and phosphatidylcholine. The influence of Choline and phosphatidylcholine could have enabled availability of methyl groups which were transfered to homocysteine or other factors to produce choline, methionine or other factors. Fish exhibit substantial amounts of TMAO which is utilized to stabilize quaternary molecular structure at depths within aquatic environment. Adequate amounts of choline induces a phenomenon in which the lipid within biological fluid becomes transformed into minuscle droplets which are easily metabolized and unable to adhese to vasculature. TMAO is produced by FMO1 and FMO3 within the hepatic tissues once TMA is produced and moves through the digestive membranes into circulatory pathways. molecules, however, typically do not traverse between cellular entities in such membranes, they may typically move through cellular membranes to move from digestive to circulatory pathways. Inflammation from homocysteine, resultant of choline and phospholipid deficiency, typically produces catabolism of cellular membranes to obtain choline factors, producing inflamation, as well as exhibition of TNF ‘alpha’. These impair tight junction proteins, loosening the adhesion between cellular entities, enabling increased permeability of TMA into circulatory pathways and enabling TMAO to move from circulatory pathways to digestive pathways. The delay in observing increases in TMAO after ingesting meat, chicken, eggs or fish, is resultant of L-carnitine, Choline, Phosphatidylcholine or other factors ingested, to also exhibit or be comingled with oxygen. Some research suggests that the anaerobic transition of digestive microflora represents the pathology transition, and the emergence of the cycle of of TMA to TMAO produciong in liver, followed by TMAO movement into digestive pathway may either sustain aerobic aspects of such cycles or provide TMAO as substrate for anaerobic metabolism. TMAO is Trimethylamine-N-Oxide, and the nitrogen can become the sustaining factor instead of oxygen. Specifically, however, TMA to TMAO transitions, deplets Nitrogen from circulatory pathways and inhibits nitric oxide synthase. It also is degradative factor of tissues and membranes, including vasculature. It also participates in interactions which change thrombin, fibrin and fibronectin characteristics, thereby changing inflammation cascade, potentially inducing thrombosis, coagulation, deposition of fibronectin and changing thresholds for activation of these biophysiologically essential capabilities. Homocysteine, from choline deficiency or impaired metabolism of choline associated factors, as well as asymmetric dimethylarginine impart similar influence. Methylglyoxyl and Trimethylamine may also impair Nitric oxide synthase. Together, these are the most indicztive factors of susceptibility to adverse health events, less optimal prognoses, susceptibility to accompanying conditions and complications, inability of therapeutics to accomplish required outcomes, as well as potential for emergence of any human pathology. The issue is a choline deficiency or impairment of genes encoding enzymes within Choline or phospholipid pathways, which comprise more than 90% of cellular membranes, included in 99.5 of biosynthesis products, more than 60 percent of extracellular matrix, and all but a few neurotransmitters. These are also influences to pervasive aspects of genetic material, and the detrimental factors exhibited here, along with deficiency, have been implicated in pervasive aspects of genetic anomalies. If one determines the molecular circumstances underlying any pathology, it is ubiquitously possible to arrive within one or two iterations of causality to the multiplicity of effects resultant of a choline deficiency or choline dependency.

    A Prebiotic and probiotic supplement, particular if ingesting choline, phospholipids, carnitine, meat, chicken, eggs or fish is typical manner of remediating TMAO associated susceptibility. A diverse spectrum antibiotic also provides benefit. For asymmetric dimethylarginine, l-arginine, citrulline, ornithine, water and other factors are beneficial, as well as trimethylglycine.

    For homocysteine, choline (chl), phospholipids, folate only with with chl, B12 methylcobolamin only with chl , or trimethylgliycine with choline, can be beneficial.

    The oncology association with choline is not precise, though correlative. Surveys of oncology study participants pervasively show a positive association, which disappears during therapeutics, and is thus very suggestive. Relevantly, ingesting of factors which exhibit choline can induce TMA which induces a principal systemic inflammation factor associated with oncology, TMAO. Asymmetric dimethylarginine, homocysteine, methylglyoxyl, and impaired insulin management, all which may be detrimental principally resultant of a choline deficiency, each induce such susceptibility.

    • Thanks A Researcher for this thorough comment. I know this post is old, but if you happen to see this response, I have a few questions. While I’ve taken some biochemistry, I don’t have nearly the understanding of the subject that you seem to have. So what is your overall takeaway here? Is it that choline deficiency if the greater evil? Or perhaps if the individual has a well established gut microbiome, they may be able to stave off the negative effects of TMAO? Basically, put this into layman’s terms for me. 🙂 Also, my family has a history of ADHD. I believe we would be more likely to have genetic susceptibility to choline deficiency. I guess I’m just trying to understand how to look at this information and what relevancy it should have in how my family eats. Thanks for any info you’re able to provide. I also apologize if I totally butchered my interpretation of what you were saying. As you can see, I am not “a researcher”. 🙂

      • An additional answer is that the choline pathways seem to not be optimal through ingestion, at least not with the microflora that has now emerged to be exhibited in the typical digestive pathway. Nutritional regimens, however, as well as environment determine much of digestive microflora characteristics, suggesting why prebiotics and probiotics are useful. The best way to obtain choline, phosphatidylcholine, trimethylglycine, folate, complete B vitamins with Niacine and methylcobalamin as well as B6 in particular, L arginine, ornithine, citrulline, methylcobalamin, glutathione, small amounts of cystathionine, is through intravenous application for several weeks of therapy at least once each year. Ingesting these as foods or supplements should be assured to be as easily digestible as possible, as granular or oil based, as well as having these either emulsified or within extended release protected capsules. Choline and phospholipid inadequacy is most probably the incipient causal factor in every biophysiologically or behaviorally detrimental outcome. Autism is pervasively a fluid, energy balance, progressive aspect of choline deficiency, including autoimmunological, disorder. However, the spatial aspects of the syndrome are that the same imbalances which cause ADHD, improved interactivity with others, environment and the universe, are the same idiosyncrasies that produce the most artistic, musical, explorative, athletic, expository, expressive or other outcomes. Humans interact at less than conscious, conscious, and peripheral levels, with the universe and one another. Consider a butterfly which is hypersensitive to weather, solar cycles, changes in large aquatic environment, lunar cycles or electromagnetic and communications fields. In large group of other butterflies, it would seem very disruptive. Someone who grows up on a farm, would find an urban context very inundating with influences, particularly because their biophysiology has become accustomed to decoding the patterns in such influence instead of finding a narrow range of influences in which to focus consciously directed focus. The human physiology is interactive within fields of influence that span the universes, and go backwards and forward in time. If biophysiology has become entangled with much more of these than is typical, then that is more normal than being able to focus on a narrow range of such influence. However, to assimilated, its probably best to add the factors suggested above 1 by 1, including a probiotic and prebioitic, until the condition becomes manageable. It might be useful to be sure that all information systems in which those experiencing ADHD are listed or included, have as little information as is possible, including location or immediate contact info. Pervasive contexts of information, reference and consideration exist in civilization, and information permeates, interacts with, affects, and is reimparted by biophysiology. It is possible to purchase a electromagnetic frequency protector that can be attached to any communications device, utilized alone, or plugged into a location in which the ADHD affect individual may be. Try these, and share the results with your health professionals, as well as acquaintances. There could be many amazing changes in health status among humanity emerging somewhat immediately. It is important that these be achieved together, in community among one another.

  9. Human populations with their regional diet have their own intestinal bacteria specifically evolved for that type of diet. Therefore, a certain type diet can be detrimental to a new group of people but perfectly OK for the native people.

    • I worked in a place in China, where they turned off the water to 30 toilets nightly. I was the first one there in the morning, and had to look to find a clean Stall. Well I saw, for six weeks what they were excreting. It looks like yellow baby custard poo. More interesting still, is that after a few weeks there, I picked up this intestinal variant. Only when returning to Chicago did things return to “normal”

  10. As always if you take one single constituent of a food and you study it, you come to misleading conclusions.

    As it is for fructose for example: extracted stand-alone fructose is like a weapon of mass destruction.. so what? No more eating fruit?

    Wait no.. turns out that the little fructose in a fruit is more then well balanced out from all the other good things that come with fruit.

    To me it seems tha same for choline. Choline seems to produce TMAO. So what? no more eating choline-containing foods? eggs and fish are bad?

    No, eggs and fish are awesome. And avoiding them is riskier than eating them.

  11. I find it interesting that last year (2013) Dr. Stanley Hazen did another research on Lp(a) cholesterol confirming that it was an indicator of heart disease more so than LDL levels. However, there are no medication and they have no idea how to control the Lp(a) therefor he recommends to further reduce LDL with statin drugs in an attempt to lower Lp(a). I also find it interesting that Lecithin and choline have been very beneficial to many in lowering cholesterol levels. And for myself Lecithin in particular has assisted me in reducing my CVD in the form of PAD by reducing the plaque in my aorta and iliac arteries without the use of statin drugs. An aside: I eat meat of all kinds including fish, pork, beef, etc. Now he comes out with the finding that it interacts with gut bacteria and supposedly increases TMAO associated with CVD. If we do not eat food or take supplements with these things in then then how will our bodies get what they need to make it. I also, find it interesting that if you cook your egg too hard that it destroys the lecithin inside the yoke (from what I have read online). Yet, his “research” was conducted with hard boiled eggs and supplements that may or may not have been heated to process. I also find it interesting lecithin clears fat from the liver, lowers cholesterol and helps remove plague from the arteries and therefor is competing against statin drugs in the movement towards natural medicine. Additional interest to me is the fact that Dr. Stanley Hazen sits on many boards and receives research money from pharmaceutical companies that manufacture/sell statin drugs to reduce cholesterol. He is on the scientific advisory board for BG Medicine, Inc.; is on the speakers bureau for Merck & Co., Inc.; is a consultant and on the speakers bureau for AstraZeneca Pharmaceuticals, Inc., Eli Lilly and Company, and Takeda Pharmaceuticals North America, Inc.; is an inventor for Frantz BioMarkers; is a consultant for Esperion Therapeutics, Inc.; is a consultant and on the scientific advisory board and receives grant/research support from CHL Medical Partners; is a consultant and on the advisory board for Pfizer Inc; and is an inventor and on the speakers bureau and receives grant/research support from Abbott Laboratories. Its, all very interesting, in my opinion..

    • Good points, Rosemary. I would only say that “interesting” isn’t the term I’d use. There have been numerous studies, going back to the mid-1990s, that demonstrate the effects of funding bias on study results, as well as numerous books, such as Overdosed America and Bad Pharma. The evidence consistently shows that an industry-funded study is “X” times more likely to produce a result favorable to the funders’ product, treatment mode or whatever they are selling, as an independent study would. The “X” factor varies with the study, but I don’t recall any that are less than twice as likely. So, instead of “interesting”, it’s evidence of the corrupting role of money in science. It’s still true that “he who pays the piper calls the tune”.

  12. your analysis is full of logical errors … almost paragraph by paragraph there are errors… and you completely ignored their control measure of the anti-biotic and the resulting decrease in inflamation. What is your goal here?

    • The thrust of this article, Steve, is NOT so much whether or meat/eggs cause heart disease but whether this (if true) is due to TMAO from eating choline-rich foods. Similar claims have been made about carnitine-rich foods.
      I do not eat eggs, nor much red meat, but I do take choline and carnitine (acetyl-l-incarnitine) as dietary supplements. They do not cause heart disease and even if they did, I would continue to take choline as it noticeably improves my memory. There are other supplements one can take, in addition to exercise that can reduce heart disease.

      And if ‘vegans’ do live longer, btw, the reason could be due to other healthy life styles that vegans undertake such as not smoking, exercising more, etc. Obviously, vegans are more health-conscious than the general population.

  13. When you write: “For example, a meta-analysis of prospective studies involving a total of 474,000 participants followed from 8 to 22 years published in the British Medical Journal found no association between higher egg consumption (up to one per day) and CHD or stroke. (9)” I really wish you and the other paleo bloggers would understand what this study says. People keep quoting it as saying eggs do not cause CHD … Hey bloggers, learn to read what is really going on. It does not say that. It says that if you already have a meat/egg rich diet adding one more egg does not seem to make you get more CHD than you had before. Quoting other peoples mistakes does not make good research. Learn to read studies for yourself. A false negatives say nothing about the positive correlations of cause and effect. It is really easy to misquote science especially since false negative are such a common error for non-research scientists quoting scientific statistics. The positive correlation that has been demonstrated is that Vegans live longer than meat/egg eaters (do not rely on false negative effect pseudo analysis).

    • “Is this guy legit…or, a crackpot?”

      This is a website for intelligent discussion about health and nutrition. The extremely complex nature of human body chemistry, which differs among billions of people, leaves a lot of room for respectful disagreement. If you believe calling someone a ‘crackpot’ because his findings differ from those of another researcher (presumably not a ‘crackpot’), then you should probably be taking supplemental choline – which is a precursor to the vital neurotransmitter, acetylcholine. It might help you think a little better.

    • Michael G., you ask a legitimate question, and, no, you are not out of line to ask if Greger is a crackpot. I suppose you could label him as such — he is a militant vegan who sees “links” where legitimate scientists do not, and foolishly cites work that does not support his opinions. But most readers of his rants probably do not go to read the work he cites. You might be amused at some of his articles on the Care2 website. And, while I agree that everyone is entitled to his opinion, everyone is not entitled to his own facts. It is interesting that, in an early paragraph of Greger’s article, he says that “studies” have shown a link between choline intake and cancer mortality. Yet, when you click on the “studies” link, there is one study, wherein the authors clearly state in their abstract that no statistically significant relationship between choline intake and cancer mortality was found, based on quite a large sample. Perhaps citing a study that undermines one’s hypothesis does not make one a crackpot, but perhaps just cynical … or confused. .

      • AnnieLaurie,

        Thank you for the considerate reply. I appreciate it.

        I’m sure that Dr. Greger has the best of intentions. Were I to ask the question again, I would word it differently.

        In the “Studies” link, I also noted the following:

        “Diet was assessed with a validated questionnaire 6 times during 22 y of follow-up.”

        So, that’s one questionnaire every 3.67 years? Interesting.

        Wishing you well,


      • I probably should be more careful in my wording. When I noted that the “studies” link produced one study that refuted Greger’s contention about choline and cancer, I did not mean to imply that there were other studies at the link that supported it. The link shows only one study (not “studies” as labeled) and that study found no statistical relationship between choline consumption and cancer mortality.

  14. The study makes no sense. First of all, the correlation between meat, animal products and “bacteria formation” in the gut makes little sense logically speaking. Bacteria are created to digest cellulose foods and sugars; this speaks little to whether or not said person ate eggs with ketchup as a burrito or steak and potatoes. Indigestible food combinations create fermentation in the intestines, leading to putrefaction and the problem with bacteria and viral overload. Hidden sugars in milk, plus the fact that pasteurized dairy is already an indigestible food product add to the problems. Possibly when someone does a study which contains proper food selection for humans will I take it seriously.

  15. A recent Mayo Clinic meta-analysis shows that carnitine supplements are associated with decreased cardiovascular risk. High TMAO levels may show that carnitine is being metabolized by gut bacteria and not being absorbed. High TMAO levels would then be markers for choline and carnitine deficiency with high TMAO levels an indicator that carnitine which has prove heart benefits and lecithin which is needed for brain function should be supplemented rather than avoided.

    The Mayo Study:
    Mayo Clin Proc. 2013 Jun;88(6):544-51. doi: 10.1016/j.mayocp.2013.02.007. Epub 2013 Apr 15.

    L-carnitine in the secondary prevention of cardiovascular disease: systematic review and meta-analysis.

    DiNicolantonio JJ, Lavie CJ, Fares H, Menezes AR, O’Keefe JH

  16. I am a med student with a passion for holistic preventative health care. I spend hours researching topics of interest and tend to keep looking until I have all my questions answered. When it comes to nutrition and the research done on the effects of different diets and food groups on the health of individuals, I can honestly say that I NEVER believe anything I read anymore. How is it possible that there is not a single fact regarding nutrition that is agreed upon among all scientists and medical professionals? Leaving conspiracy and fraud aside, how is it possible that different studies can produce such variable results? It is an undeniable fact that there is no single diet or food group that causes the same harm or has the same benefits among different individuals. I am not a qualified professional (yet), but my common sense cant help but wonder whether the answer lies in the diversity of the human being as an adaptive species. Is it not possible that one food group can have a certain effect on one individual and a different effect on the next? Is it ludicrous to think that my plant based diet that has changed my life and cured me of numerous chronic ailments might be detrimental to the health of another? Just as we adapt to our environments on a mental and emotional level and subsequently react in our own individual ways; are we not doing the same on a physiological level? There is no doubt about the fact that a down right unhealthy diet ridden with animal fat, sugar and additives will be detrimental to any person’s health, but in my opinion, the debate about the best food group vs. the worst food group will be the battle of the ages and I am confident enough to say that there will never be a victor.

    • Christie, I totally agree with your perspective. I would add another reason for the wide variance in results and conclusions from various studies. That would be that there are many different agendas/biases among those who conduct the studies or analyze the information. These agendas and beliefs are might be more powerful forces than we realize. Unless we knew these biases and agendas ( which we usually don’t) then we cannot interpret objectively.

  17. To the author: perhaps it would take the liver longer to metabolize the isotope version of phosphatidylcholine, after all, look at the units of the actual study. The radioisotope is in nM and the eggs are in microM, implying that the liver is having a more difficult time metabolizing the radioisotope than the fat from the eggs.

    Given this, they DO BOTH INCREASE making the study kinda cool.

    Regarding what you wrote about fish. That is a pretty logical argument. However, there is such a thing as dose dependancy. Who is to say that zero TMAO is good for the heart, a little TMAO is bad for the heart, but a whole lot of TMAO is really good for the heart?

  18. So, another study where the researchers start out with the assumption that animal products must be unhealthy (and that “a high-fiber, vegetarian diet” is in all ways superior), and then try really hard to contrive whatever they find to support said assumption? No news here.

  19. You should all actually read the paper. The point wasn’t to say that you shouldn’t eat eggs or beef. They have essential nutrients that we all need, and eating it a few times a week won’t make you drop dead from atherosclerosis. The point is to understand the mechanism of atherosclerosis and cardiovascular disease better. We need to understand the relationship between the gut flora and the rest of our body, because it plays an essential role. Once we understand how TMAO acts, we may be able to find better preventative measures, drugs, or supplements to help us all stay healthy. They didn’t once conclude that eggs are bad for you.

  20. Regarding your article ‘Choline and TMAO: Eggs Still Don’t Cause Heart Disease’ you don’t address another recent finding concerning choline in eggs, and the consumption of eggs and the link it prostate cancer.

    Am J Clin Nutr. 2012 Oct;96(4):855-63. Epub 2012 Sep 5.
    Choline intake and risk of lethal prostate cancer: incidence and survival.
    Richman EL, Kenfield SA, Stampfer MJ, Giovannucci EL, Zeisel SH, Willett WC, Chan JM.
    Departments of Epidemiology and Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA, USA. [email protected]
    Meat, milk, and eggs have been inconsistently associated with the risk of advanced prostate cancer. These foods are sources of choline-a nutrient that may affect prostate cancer progression through cell membrane function and one-carbon metabolism. No study has examined dietary choline and the risk of lethal prostate cancer.
    Our objective was to examine whether dietary choline, choline-containing compounds, and betaine (a choline metabolite) increase the risk of lethal prostate cancer.
    We prospectively examined the intake of these nutrients and the risk of lethal prostate cancer among 47,896 men in the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study. In a case-only survival analysis, we examined the postdiagnostic intake of these nutrients and the risk of lethal prostate cancer among 4282 men with an initial diagnosis of nonmetastatic disease during follow-up. Diet was assessed with a validated questionnaire 6 times during 22 y of follow-up.
    In the incidence analysis, we observed 695 lethal prostate cancers during 879,627 person-years. Men in the highest quintile of choline intake had a 70% increased risk of lethal prostate cancer (HR: 1.70; 95% CI: 1.18, 2.45; P-trend = 0.005). In the case-only survival analysis, we observed 271 lethal cases during 33,679 person-years. Postdiagnostic choline intake was not statistically significantly associated with the risk of lethal prostate cancer (HR for quintile 5 compared with quintile 1: 1.69; 95% CI: 0.93, 3.09; P-trend = 0.20).
    Of the 47,896 men in our study population, choline intake was associated with an increased risk of lethal prostate cancer.

    • If choline intake increases the risk of lethal prostate cancer, then those such as myself who supplement with choline should also supplement with nutrients (such as Vitamin D, Saw Palmetto, etc) that decrease the risk of prostate cancer. In any case, for me, going around in a choline-deficient stupor for the rest of my life is definitely worse than shortening it by a few years via prostate cancer.

  21. I don’t eat eggs because a food allergy test showed that I am slightly allergic to both the yolks and whites. However, I do take a lot of supplemental choline, both phosphatidyl and bitartrate forms. Choline is the only nootropic substance I take with a noticeable benefit, that is, as soon as I stop taking it, I start forgetting things. So, needless to say, I will continue.

  22. Finally, an article that actually does some real investigative journalism regarding TMAO! Thank you! Other articles on this topic have been written by so-called journalists who didn’t even do a simple internet search to see what TMAO is and where it occurs in nature. I am a biologist who discovered (starting as far back as the late 1970s) that TMAO in fish and shrimp, where it is really high, is a potent protein stabilizer that helps marine animals deal with various stresses. That is, TMAO helps proteins fold into proper functional shapes when they are disturbed. Our discovery made the cover of Science (America’s #1 science journal) in 1982. Scientists following my work have shown that TMAO, at least in cultured cells, can “cure” mad cow disease and cystic fibrosis, among other protein-folding diseases.
    I asked Dr. Hazen directly why people who eat TMAO-rich foods do not have higher risk of heart disease, and he had no answer. Now, it is possible that too much TMAO in the absence of things that disturb protein shapes could be bad–that is, it could over-stabilize proteins. But it could also be that the Hazen discovery is just a correlation in which TMAO itself is not the culprit.

    • Thanks you for this comment … some logical thinking on the subject is very refreshing … possible correlation to inflammation is probably what is really going on … now we can start to follow the clues instead of simply debunking the demonstrated effects including the anti-biotic control

  23. Small amounts of zein peptides from corn and similar proteins from wheat etc. do get into animals that eat these, but such traces should only be a problem if you have active allergies to these proteins.
    However, it’s unlikely that year-round access to eggs was a feature of ancient history, as most animals lay eggs seasonally and the hen is an import from Burma that didn’t arrive elsewhere till later (the first mention of the bird in the Bible is during the crucifixion). Egg white protein is one of the most common allergens.
    Replacing eggs with chicken livers will tell you whether it is the feed or the egg itself that causes the problem. If it’s not the feed, separating eggs and cooking only the yolks should help.

  24. Since going largely paleo, I have started to experience nausea when eating eggs and commercially-produced mayo sometimes. I was recently listening to the Paleo View podcast, and they mentioned that the feed that chickens are given can cause people who are sensitive to soy or gluten to have negative reactions. I can’t find any research about this topic, but thought you might have some insight. I really enjoy the academic nature of your podcast and appreciate your thoughtful answers to listeners’ questions.

    • HEP C has been therapeutically indicated as cured. there are a number of different combinations including declatasvir, sofosbuvir, ledipasvir, ribivarin, simeprivir, other earlier developed treatments and combinations of these within the same therapeutic. Supplementing with Choline, Trimethylglycine and phospholipid factors, may help support hepatic function in a regenerative capacity.

  25. ” . . . some research suggests that consuming large amounts of whole grain increase Prevotella bacteria in the gut, which were associated with the highest levels of TMAO in Dr. Hazen’s previous study on TMAO. If this is the case, consuming large amounts of fiber from whole grains may actually increase the risk of heart disease.”

    Whole grains. This is the culprit. I’ve been off whole grains about a month now. I feel so much better!

    I’m glad I read this article because I had also cut down on eggs and meats, and then I’m finding that TMAO and Lecithin are in just about everything.

    • Prevotella has recently been shown to also be high in the Hadza hunter gatherers so it is not all about grains.

  26. That’s right. I’m guessing he means unlabeled for the second one. So in those charts don’t make sense. The second one shows that it takes 4 to 8 hours for the choline supplement to show up as TMAO in the blood but then why does the total not go up in the first chart? And what is the spike attributed to? The y axis is different for the charts, what are the units?

  27. This is a very interesting study. I think researchers still need to figure out how TMAO is linked to heart disease. Some researchers are recommending to completely remove egg and meat from our diet.

  28. Chris and fellow knowledgable posters,
    I’m avoiding eggs for the next 25 days and counting as part of an autoimmune protocol test. I’m also 4.5 months pregnant and know I need the nutrients provided by eggs. Can you offer some advice on how best to substitute/replace egg nutrients such as choline, cholesterol and fat-soluble vitamins in the right proportions? Thanks!

    • The egg white is the potential allergen and there may be no reason to avoid the yolk (which has the nutrients you want) if you can separate it cleanly. I’d look online for tips about ding that. Failing that, chicken livers are probably an OK substitute, chop them up finely and fry them in butter.

  29. Egg got the heart disease reputation from the ’70s and since then the reactions have been varied.I’m of the view that it is not bad at all,if consumed in moderation.Those arguing that the study focused on lecithin and not the egg and saying it’s sold in nutritional components don’t get the point.Why then should we eat while we can just get supplements of the fat list of thiamin,choline,niacin,betaine and the never-ending list of vits,minerals and what-not-all present in a single egg?

    I’ll go with the egg on any given day.And the almost half a million participants followed for 16 years in the meta-analysis of studies that found no link between eggs and CHD PLUS stroke is a number I can take heart from.

  30. “we would expect to see an initial increase in labeled TMAO followed by an increase in labeled TMAO. ”
    This does not make sense, can you explain? Is there a typo?
    Also the units for TMAO are not depicted and there is a very large difference in the peak TMAO levels obtained in the two graphs. The first graph indicates a peak = 8 at hour one, the second graph shows a max = 300 at hour eight. The level of 8 (at one hour) pales in comparison to the level of 300 at hour 8. I would expect that GI transit, intestinal bacteria processing, absorption and hepatic metabolism to take several hours, which is when the TMAO levels reached the highest.

  31. Yo! Chris
    Where does this put L-Carnitine supplementation in the TMAO theory.

    Also (OT) sorry..a slight dilemma.
    If you have a Barrett’s and are prescribed a PPI and wish to get the gut acid friendly with Betaine HCL
    supplementation…can this be accomplished or is it contra-indicated?

    Thanks & regards

  32. Dear Dr. Chris,

    Im glad to hear I can continue to eat eggs. I just got hooked on mixing them with fermented sauerkraut. Any recommendation on Udo’s Oil? 2-1 Omega-6/omega-3 ratio, although not ideal (not 1-1), I tend to use it for fueling on long runs and it seems to help.


  33. This part doesn’t make sense to me. Can you rephrase it?

    “we would expect to see an initial increase in labeled TMAO followed by an increase in labeled TMAO”

  34. Dear Dr. Chris,

    I’m starting a blog/website for nutrition supplements, how can I use the wordage in your articles? Is it legal?


    • You can quote passages from the article with proper attribution (and preferably a link back to the article), but reposting an entire article without permission is a violation of copyright—and just not very nice.

  35. what makes me laugh in all this is the fact choline is a required by our bodies in order to live. choline is found in cell membranes i.e phosphatidylcholine also in important in liver and brain health. In fact phosphatidylcholine plays a huge role in what is allowed going in and out of the cell membrane

    • This is true, but the fact a nutrient is required for health doesn’t mean that too much of it can’t cause problems. This is really the rule rather than the exception, with everything from vitamins to minerals to water.

      The question is whether choline-rich foods like eggs and liver contribute to an increase in total serum TMAO. This study does not support that hypothesis.

      • Their contention that TMAO causes atherosclerosis depends at one stage on it elevating LDL and depressing HDL. All trans fats do this, including ruminant trans fats. Yet observational studies consistently fail to find a link between consumption of ruminant trans fats and CVD.
        Ergo, inhibition of reverse cholesterol transport is not sufficient of itself to produce the effects attributed to it in these papers. Either that or ruminant fats contain some magic ingredient that counters the harmful offect of the trans fats. I wonder what that is – palmitic acid? Stearic acid? Cholesterol?

  36. Chris, if you think your line of reasoning is sufficiently solid could you, maybe together with Chris Masterjohn, write a comment about this article to the New England Journal of Medicine? That would force Stanley Hazen to reply. I am curious what they would say.

  37. Thank u for this. I was starting to look at my morning egg yolk as a yellow version of Darth Vader.

  38. The study was less about eggs and more about lecithin, which is in eggs. Why did your analysis not deal with lecithin, which, incidentally sold as a supplement? Do we avoid lecithin OR take it as a supplement I. E. welcome it?

  39. Chris,
    I have read information stating that when you cook an egg yolk you oxidize the good fat in the yolk, which in turn increases the bad cholesterol. Any truth to this or is ok to eat poached, hard boiled and a variety of eggs?

    • That “info” on cooking eggs is sometimes applied to any method that breaks the yolk or mixes the white and yolk, as if oxidation occurs instantaneously. If smashing the yolk is so bad, how come all the wild mammals who smash eggs and readily eat them are not suffering from “bad cholesterol”? Unless you get the eggs from your home flock, or from someone you know, I would think any problems from cooking are outweighed by the potential for bacterial contamination if you consume them raw.

    • Christine,
      If you’d like a good primer on cholesterol, search “the straight dope on cholesterol”; it’ll be on Dr. Peter Attia’s blog, The Eating Academy…I do believe that he and Chris link to each other. He particularly debunks the myth that dietary cholesterol has anything to do with LDL et al; actually, according to the data he references, most of the “cholesterol” that we consume is in a form that our body doesn’t even bother to absorb, as the liver already produces a much more readily re-absorbable form of cholesterol.

  40. In reading Dr. Hazen’s article it almost seems like he had a pre-conceived idea and set about to prove it regardless of what else he found. How much money did he get for this research?

    • It would be interesting to find out who funded Dr. Hazen’s study. The funding source might shed some light on the apparent bias.

    • Indeed it does Elizabeth. He has managed to get his name in the news, which seems to be a major goal for researchers going for government grants and the like. As anything else in life, one must ask who benefits from his headline grabbing ‘research’?

      Thank you Chris for writing this article. R

    • Hazen and the others are listed as the inventor(s) of a 2009 patent application for what seems to be a standard test protocol for plasma TMAO (inter alia) .

      Patent at

      So presumably if their conclusions are accepted we’ll all be trotting off for another test of questionable value to go with the current lipid panel – which I guess will work out pretty well for them in terms of royalties.

      I guess it could be co-incidence that they developed the test four years ago and now their research (which has been heavily marketed in the public domain) concludes that we all need a TMAO test. Or possibly not.

  41. I agree with Mr. Shield that this borders on fraud, though it is more likely the be the result of the garbage that passes for “scientific” reporting for non-scientists; too many of these writers are simply not equipped for the task of understanding the study and reporting accurately. However, I am not going to rule out the existence of scientists who have an agenda, which this one gave away with his recommendation that people scared by his study eat a high fiber (meaning lots of whole grains) vegetarian diet. That is a pretty remarkable leap in logic from a fairly limited study, and especially one that has yet to be replicated by other scientists and discussed more fully within the field. So, same old, same old from the militant, everyone-must-become-vegetarian-or-vegan types.

  42. This all borders on fraud to me. I mean, they’re making headlines about beef and eggs, yet as you and others noted, some veggies are just as “bad” w/TMAO and seafood much worse…. If I ever have a heart attack it will because of reading nonsense rather than eating the eggs.

    • The fraud to which you refer unfortunately is a common occurrence in scientific research, especially in the medical field. The poor design and data cherry-picking in so many of these studies likely explain why there has been so much conflicting advice on nutrition by so-called experts in the last few decades. For insights on the problems associated with so much of this research, check out Ben Goldacre’s books, “Bad Science” and “Bad Pharma”. Dr. Goldacre is a British doc whose exposes will make your blood pressure rise (unlike red meat and eggs). What’s especially shocking is that no one seems to do anything about the fraud and the perversion of the scientific method.

    • This quote:

      “Finally, as I pointed out above, some research suggests that consuming large amounts of whole grain increase Prevotella bacteria in the gut, which were associated with the highest levels of TMAO”

      This could indicate that Dr Hazen’s group have used a group of test persons that are vegan or vegetarian that due to their diet have their guts allready full of Prevotella bacterias.

    • Maybe the impact of plant choline in the gut is different than that when consuming red meat or even eggs.

      There is still too much unknown about all this to be making decisions confidently.

    • Speaking of fraud, half as much effort on the Diet-Heart Study would result in lack of proof that saturated fats do not impact CHD.

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