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Why You Should Think Twice about Removing Animal Products from Your Diet

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Reviewed by Christina Graham, MSN, APRN, AGPCNP-BC

Vegetarian and vegan diets can’t offer the same nutrients as this grilled meat.
Are vegetarian and vegan diets healthy? If you’re not eating meat, you’re missing out on key nutrients animal products provide.

This is an update of an article I published in 2011. I affirm that animal products are among the most nutrient-dense foods you can eat and that vegetarians and vegans are at risk for multiple nutrient deficiencies. I have included up-to-date research and expanded the list of nutrients that are often lacking in vegetarian and vegan diets.

Maybe you have considered going vegetarian or vegan for the health benefits. Or maybe you know someone who feels strongly about it as an ethical choice, and you wonder if they can really follow the diet in a healthy way. I respect these reasons and appreciate anyone who thinks deeply about the social and spiritual impact of their food choices—even if my own exploration of these questions has led me to a different answer.

But many choose a vegetarian diet because they’re under the impression that it’s a healthier choice from a nutritional perspective. It is this last reason that I’d like to address in this article. For the last 50-plus years, we’ve been told that meat, eggs, and animal fats are bad for us and that we’ll live longer and enjoy superior health if we minimize or avoid them. This idea has been so thoroughly drilled into our heads that few people even question it anymore. In fact, if you asked the average person on the street whether a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthier than an omnivorous diet, they’d probably say yes. But is this really true?

If You Want Nutrient-Dense Foods, You Need to Eat Animal Products

Plant-based diets emphasize vegetables, which are quite nutrient dense, and fruits, which are somewhat nutrient dense. They also typically include large amounts of cereal grains (refined and unrefined) and legumes, both of which are low in bioavailable nutrients and high in anti-nutrients like phytate. Most importantly, vegetarian and vegan diets eschew organ meats, other meats, and fish and shellfish, which are among the most nutrient-dense foods you can eat. (1)

Followers of vegetarian and vegan diets, beware: You could be missing out on B12, iron, calcium, and other key nutrients. Is it time to rethink your diet plan and add meat back to your plate? Find out. #nutrientdensefoods #paleocure.

Vegan diets, in particular, are almost completely devoid of certain nutrients that are crucial for physiological function. Deficiencies can take months or years to develop, and many are easily missed because they are not routinely tested for in primary care settings. Several studies have shown that both vegetarians and vegans are prone to deficiencies in:

  • Vitamin B12
  • Calcium
  • Iron
  • Zinc
  • Long-chain fatty acids EPA and DHA
  • Fat-soluble vitamins like A and D

Let’s take a closer look at each of these nutrients.

Vegetarian and Vegan Diets Don’t Provide Enough Vitamin B12

B12 deficiency is especially common in vegetarians and vegans. To properly evaluate B12 status, total serum vitamin B12 isn’t enough. A better marker for vitamin B12 is holotranscobalamin II, the biologically active fragment, which should be measured along with total homocysteine and methylmalonic acid. Low B12 is correlated with low holotranscobalamin II, while homocysteine and methylmalonic acid are usually increased in later stages of vitamin B12 deficiency. (2) The most recent studies using more sensitive techniques for detecting B12 deficiency have found that up to 77 percent of vegetarians and 92 percent of vegans are B12 deficient, compared to just 11 percent of omnivores. (3, 4, 5)

Vitamin B12 works together with folate in the synthesis of DNA and red blood cells. It’s also involved in the production of the myelin sheath around the nerves and the conduction of nerve impulses. B12 deficiency can cause numerous symptoms, including:

  • Fatigue
  • Lethargy
  • Weakness
  • Memory loss
  • Neurological and psychiatric problems
  • Anemia
  • And much more …

It’s a common myth among vegetarians and vegans that it’s possible to get B12 from plant sources like:

  • Seaweed
  • Fermented soy
  • Spirulina
  • Brewer’s yeast

These plant foods don’t contain B12. They contain B12 analogs, called cobamides, that block the intake of—and increase the need for—true B12. (6) Researchers have identified purple laver nori (seaweed) as a plant source of bioavailable B12; however, it could contain high levels of cadmium and arsenic. (7, 8, 9, 10) More studies are needed, but there is a potentially serious problem with relying on purple laver nori for adequate B12.

If You’re Vegan, You Might Be Missing out on Calcium

You know that calcium is important for bone health, but did you know it’s essential for muscle and nerve function and that it’s involved in blood clotting? On paper, calcium intake is similar in vegetarians and omnivores (probably because both eat dairy products). Vegans, however, are often deficient. (11, 12, 13)

Calcium bioavailability from plant foods is affected by their levels of oxalate and phytate, which are inhibitors of calcium absorption and thus decrease the amount of calcium the body can extract from plant foods. (10) So while leafy greens like spinach and kale have a relatively high calcium content, the calcium is not efficiently absorbed during digestion.

One study suggests that it would take 16 servings of spinach to get the same amount of absorbable calcium as an eight-ounce glass of milk. (14) That would be 33 cups of baby spinach or around five or six cups of cooked spinach. There are a few vegetables listed in this paper that have higher levels of bioavailable calcium, but it’s important to note that all of the vegetables tested required multiple servings to achieve the same amount of usable calcium as one single serving of milk, cheese, or yogurt.

This suggests that trying to meet your daily calcium needs from plant foods alone might not be a great strategy. For those who don’t tolerate dairy well, fish with edible bones like sardines are great sources of calcium on a Paleo diet.

You’re Also More Likely to Be Iron-Deficient on a Plant-Based Diet

Vegetarians and omnivores often have similar levels of serum iron, but levels of ferritin—the long-term storage form of iron—are lower in vegetarians than in omnivores. (15, 16) This is significant, because ferritin depletion is the first stage of iron deficiency.

Moreover, although vegetarians often have similar iron intakes to omnivores on paper, it is more common for vegetarians (and particularly vegans) to be iron deficient.

For example, this study of 75 vegan women in Germany found that 40 percent of them were iron deficient, despite average iron intakes that were above the recommended daily allowance. (17) Among Australian men, iron intake among vegetarians and vegans was 29 to 49 percent higher than omnivores, but their serum ferritin concentrations were barely half that of omnivores. (18) Despite similar iron intakes, another study published this year showed vegans and female vegetarians having low ferritin levels. (19)

Why would this be? As with calcium, the bioavailability of the iron in plant foods (nonheme iron) is much lower than in animal foods (heme iron). Plant-based forms of iron are also inhibited by other commonly consumed substances, such as:

This explains why vegetarian diets have been shown to reduce nonheme iron absorption by 70 percent and total iron absorption by 85 percent. (20, 21)

Red Meat, Fish, and Poultry Are Your Best Sources for Zinc

Zinc is important for the immune system, cell growth, and wound healing. You won’t usually see overt zinc deficiency in Western vegetarians, but their intake often falls below recommendations, probably because red meat, poultry, and fish are the best sources.

This is another case where bioavailability is important; many plant foods that contain zinc also contain phytate, which inhibits zinc absorption. Vegetarian diets tend to reduce zinc absorption by about 35 percent compared with an omnivorous diet. (22) Thus, even when the diet meets or exceeds the RDA for zinc, deficiency may still occur. (23) One study suggested that vegetarians may require up to 50 percent more zinc than omnivores for this reason. (24) A meta-analysis of 34 studies found that both zinc intakes and serum zinc concentrations were lower in vegetarians than non-vegetarians. (25)

You Might Be Missing out on the Benefits of Essential Fatty Acids

Plant foods do contain linoleic acid (omega-6) and alpha-linolenic acid (ALA, omega-3), both of which are considered essential fatty acids. In this context, an essential fatty acid is one that can’t be synthesized by the body and must be obtained in the diet. However, an increasing body of research has highlighted the benefits of the long-chain omega-3 fatty acids EPA and DHA. These fatty acids play a protective and therapeutic role in a wide range of diseases: (26, 27)

While it is possible for some ALA from plant foods to be converted into EPA and DHA, that conversion is poor in humans: between 5 and 10 percent for EPA and 2 and 5 percent for DHA. (28)

Although no official recommendation exists, the daily suggested intake of combined DHA and EPA is around 250 to 500 mg. In theory, this means vegans and vegetarians would need to consume between five and 12.5 grams of ALA per day to obtain 250 mg of DHA. In reality, vegetarians and vegans consume merely 0.97 g/day and 0.86 g/day of ALA, respectively, according to a study of over 14,000 Americans. (29)

Vegetarians have 30 percent lower levels of EPA and DHA than omnivores, while vegans have 50 percent lower EPA and nearly 60 percent lower DHA. (30, 31) Moreover, the conversion of ALA to DHA depends on zinc, iron, selenium, and pyridoxine—nutrients that vegetarians and vegans are less likely than omnivores to get enough of. (32333435) Eating 12 to 16 ounces of cold-water fatty fish per week remains the best way to get adequate EPA and DHA. The fish will also provide bioavailable protein and selenium.

Vitamins A and D: What You’re Missing

Perhaps the biggest problem with vegetarian and vegan diets, however, is their near total lack of two fat-soluble vitamins: A and D.

Fat-soluble vitamins play numerous and critical roles in human health. Vitamin A promotes healthy immune function, fertility, eyesight, and skin. Vitamin D regulates calcium metabolism, regulates immune function, reduces inflammation, and protects against some forms of cancer.

These important fat-soluble vitamins are concentrated, and in some cases found almost exclusively, in animal foods like:

  • Seafood
  • Organ meats
  • Eggs
  • Dairy products

Some obscure species of mushrooms can provide large amounts of vitamin D, but these mushrooms are rarely consumed and often difficult to obtain. This explains why vitamin D levels are often low in vegetarians and even lower in vegans. (36, 37, 38, 39)

The idea that plant foods contain vitamin A is a common misconception. Plants contain beta-carotene, the precursor to active vitamin A (retinol). While beta-carotene is converted into vitamin A in humans, the conversion is inefficient. (40, 41) For example, a single serving of liver per week would meet the RDA of 3,000 IU. To get the same amount from plant foods, you’d have to eat two cups of carrots, one cup of sweet potatoes, or two cups of kale every day.

Moreover, traditional cultures consumed up to 10 times the current RDA for vitamin A. It would be nearly impossible to get this amount of vitamin A from plant foods without juicing or taking supplements. And if supplements aren’t consumed with a fatty meal, the actual absorption will be low. (42)

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Vegans and Vegetarians, You Could Be Missing These Key Nutrients

If you don’t eat meat or other animal products, you could also be missing out on:

  • Choline
  • Creatine
  • Taurine
  • Methionine
  • Glycine
  • Selenium

Choline

Vegetarian and vegan diets, along with the Standard American Diet, pose risks of choline deficiency. (43) Choline is required for:

  • Healthy cell membrane function
  • Methylation
  • Cognitive development in children

It’s so important that the FDA recently set a daily recommended intake of 550 mg for men and 425 mg for women, which should increase to 450 mg during pregnancy and 550 mg during breastfeeding. Recent research suggests that only 8.5 percent of women meet the daily choline requirement. (44) With egg yolks and organ meats as the most potent sources of choline, it’s not surprising that even omnivores are not getting enough. This is another reason I encourage giving organ meat dishes another try.

Creatine

Creatine plasma and muscle levels are usually lower in vegetarians than in omnivores, as meat provides the richest source of creatine. (45) Creatine may play an important role in cognitive function. A randomized controlled trial found that six weeks of oral creatine supplementation significantly improved vegetarians’ performance on tests of fluid intelligence and working memory. The difference in scores between groups was enormous. (46)

Another study found that creatine supplementation in vegetarians improved memory, while having no effect on fluid intelligence or working memory in meat-eaters. (47) These results suggest that vegetarians’ baseline scores may have been impaired due to low creatine intake.

Taurine

Taurine has a central role as a neurotransmitter, promotes the development of the central nervous system, and upholds the structure of cell membranes. Although the body can synthesize small amounts of taurine, vegetarians and vegans often still have low plasma and urinary taurine levels because taurine is found primarily in animal products. (48, 49) Low plasma taurine in newborns is associated with lower scores on mental development and arithmetic tests at age seven, suggesting that dietary taurine aids in neural development. (50)

Methionine

Methionine is another amino acid that is restricted on a plant-based diet. Low methionine intake has been linked to longevity in scientific research. However, methionine is still an essential amino acid, and too little methionine may impair detoxification and reduce fertility. (51, 52) After being activated using ATP, methionine becomes the universal methyl donor.

On the flip side, too much methionine can also pose problems. After methyl donation, methionine becomes homocysteine and must be recycled back to methionine by B12, folate, or betaine (derived from choline). Because meat is high in methionine, diets heavy in muscle meats but low in connective tissues can result in increased homocysteine levels, a risk factor for CVD.

That said, studies have shown that vegetarians and vegans have significantly higher homocysteine levels on average than omnivores. (53) In one study, the average homocysteine level among vegetarians was 13.9 nmol/L and among vegans, 16.4 nmol/L, compared to 11.3 nmol/L for omnivores. (54) This puts most vegetarians and vegans in a range that carries significant risk of CVD. In fact, according to one study, the prevalence of hyperhomocysteinemia among vegetarians may actually be higher than that among non-vegetarians already diagnosed with heart disease. (55)

Glycine

Vegetarians and vegans don’t consume as much glycine as meat-eaters, as the richest sources are the “odd bits” of animal foods, like: (56)

  • Skin
  • Bones
  • Collagen
  • Gelatin

Glycine is one of the building blocks of collagen, found in our connective tissues. In addition to its structural role, glycine can also act as a neurotransmitter, plays a role in blood sugar regulation, and stimulates the production of glutathione, the body’s master antioxidant. (5758, 59, 60)

Some Paleo dieters can be susceptible to low glycine intake, too, if they are eating tons of muscle meat and ignoring the “nose-to-tail” philosophy. Glycine helps balance out methionine levels, in part by acting as a buffer for excess methyl groups. Low choline and glycine intake, common in vegetarians and vegans, can further contribute to high homocysteine levels and increased risk of CVD. Eating bone broth regularly can help balance glycine/methionine levels.

Selenium

While a few studies show no difference in selenium status among diet types, most research shows lower intake and/or levels in vegetarians and vegans compared to omnivores, including one study that measured glutathione peroxidase, a selenium-dependent enzyme and an excellent marker of active selenium status. (61, 62, 63, 64) Selenium has a role in immune function, supports thyroid hormone synthesis, and protects the thyroid from excess iodine damage. (65, 66) Selenium also helps prevent mercury toxicity. (67)

Selenium deficiency is also common in those with digestive health issues like Crohn’s disease or celiac disease. (6869) The best sources of selenium include:

  • Brazil nuts
  • Crimini mushrooms
  • Some sea foods
  • Chicken
  • Eggs
  • Lamb
  • Turkey
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Eating Animal Products Could Also Help Your Thyroid Health

Thyroid hormone synthesis requires iodine, a nutrient that can be lacking from omnivore and plant-based diets alike. Most iodine comes from the sea; the soil—and therefore vegetables grown in soil—usually contains very little. In a typical mixed diet, the highest sources of iodine are iodized salt and animal products like:

  • Dairy products
  • Eggs
  • Seafood

Vegetarians and vegans are at risk for low iodine intake. (70)

In the Boston area, urinary iodine levels in vegans were barely half that of vegetarians, and vegans were at high risk of iodine deficiency. (71) Several studies of Scandinavian populations confirm that vegans finished last in iodine intake and/or urinary iodine levels. (72, 73, 74) To make matters worse, isoflavones found in soy products, which are sometimes consumed in large quantities in vegan and vegetarian diets, may exacerbate iodine deficiency and hypothyroidism. (75)

But even those following a Paleo template can be at risk for iodine deficiency if they are not regularly consuming seafood. (76) Sea vegetables, especially kelp, are the highest sources of iodine ounce for ounce.

Your Kids Need Nutrient-Dense Foods to Thrive

Because of the prevailing idea in our culture that vegetarian and vegan diets are healthy, more and more children are being raised from birth (and even from conception!) on meat-free diets. Both the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (AND) and USDA have said that vegetarian and vegan diets are safe during pregnancy, but critical analyses by several researchers have questioned whether these recommendations are based on sufficient evidence. One review remarked that “the evidence on vegan–vegetarian diets in pregnancy is heterogeneous and scant,” suggesting that more research is needed to answer the question of whether they are, in fact, safe during pregnancy. (77)

Vegetarian and vegan diets for children carry significant risks of nutrient deficiencies that can have dire health consequences. (78, 79, 80)

Studies have shown that kids raised until age six on a vegan diet are still B12 deficient years after adding at least some animal products to their diet. One study found an association between B12 status and measures of intelligence and memory, with formerly vegan kids scoring lower than omnivorous kids. (81) Devastating case studies have reported B12 deficiency in young vegan children that have led to neurological damage and developmental delays. (82, 83)

Low nutrient intake extends beyond vitamin B12. Other case studies have attributed hypothyroidism in young children to a maternal and/or childhood vegan diet. (84, 85) Compared to omnivores, breast milk from vegan mothers had lower levels of DHA and EPA, which are vital for brain development, especially in the first year of life, when a baby’s brain literally doubles in size. (83) In short, just like adults, children on vegetarian and vegan diets often have lower intakes of iron, iodine, vitamin A, zinc, and more.

Childhood is the critical time for proper nutrition. Kids can be notoriously “picky eaters,” so we should be sure that each bite counts by providing the nutrients they need to thrive.

Your Best Choice for Optimal Nutrition Isn’t a Vegetarian or Vegan Diet, but a Paleo Template

With care and attention, I think it’s possible to meet most of your nutrient needs with a vegetarian diet that includes liberal amounts of pasture-raised, full-fat dairy and eggs, with one exception: EPA and DHA. These long-chain omega fats are found exclusively in marine algae and fish and shellfish, so the only way to get them on a vegetarian diet would be to take a microalgae supplement or bend the rules and take fish oil or cod liver oil as a supplement. (86) Still, while it may be possible to obtain adequate nutrition on a vegetarian diet, it is not optimal—as the research above indicates.

I don’t think it’s possible to meet nutrient needs on a vegan diet without supplements—and quite a few of them. Vegan diets are low in:

  • B12
  • Bioavailable iron and zinc
  • Choline
  • Vitamins A and D
  • Calcium
  • EPA and DHA
If you’re intent on following a vegan diet, make sure you’re supplementing.

It’s worth pointing out that there are genetic differences that affect the conversion of certain nutrient precursors (like beta-carotene and alpha-linolenic acid) into the active forms of those nutrients (like retinol and EPA and DHA, respectively), and these differences may affect how long someone will be able to follow a vegetarian or vegan diet before they develop nutrient deficiencies. This explains why some people seem to do well for years on these diets, while others develop problems very quickly.

Is It Time to Rethink Your Diet?

From an evolutionary perspective, is difficult to justify a diet with low levels of several nutrients critical to human function. While it may be possible to address these shortcomings through targeted supplementation (an issue that is still debated), it makes far more sense to meet your nutritional needs from food.

This is especially important for children, who are still developing and are even more sensitive to suboptimal intake of the nutrients discussed in this article. Like all parents, vegetarians and vegans want the best for their children. Unfortunately, many are not aware of the potential for nutrient deficiencies posed by their dietary choices.

I hope this article can serve as a resource for anyone on a plant-based diet, whether they choose to start eating meat (or animal products, in the case of vegans) again or not.

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1,873 Comments

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  1. This is to On the Fence. I like your response. This is how I am dealing with the choice. I completed certification as a health coach. We were encouraged to find a target market – who we were passionate about working with. Broccoli is good, kale is good, but when I started to see what was going on with it’s production I decided that what I was really passionate about was animals – that would be my target market…because I just couldn’t focus on helping people eat broccoli once I had seen where their meat came from. They would have to know as well. Beyond that I couldn’t force myself to watch any of the animal abuse videos on Facebook or YouTube. Honorably then I decided if I wouldn’t watch, I had to stop participating. It wasn’t an option to permit others to commit that kind of violence in my name while I closed my eyes because I wanted to engage in a variety of egocentric consumption. Still, I had to find a process to create change. I still got bacon with my omelet, because I still wanted bacon. And I ate some, with the picture of the Chinese pigs I had seen, standing alive with huge hooks through their jaws waiting to be driven in the back of a truck, bumping up and down with the hook holding them in place. I ate a few pieces with that picture in mind. It was undercooked and fatty. I threw the rest away, which is not common for me. And since then I have not had the desire to eat bacon, ribs, pork dumplings…some of my favorite things. I
    have to peg each decision in place in the moment – I still want cashmere sweaters, leather bags and shoes, honey, cheese,yogurt and diary and I’m hardly at 100%, maybe 75% but I am approaching each decision each day as a conscious choice to be mindful, open and not defensive, and I find I more and more make the choice that supports no direct violence being done in my name. We each have to come to terms with these decisions, but I’d like to see people discussin their conscious mindful choices and instead I see alot of arrogance and derision. At the end of the day, meat is unsustainable and market forces are already moving us towards non-meat or faux meat alternatives because it’s largely just a texture and a very poor economic resolution to what it offers. I don’t want to hear from people who catch a fish, or have a chicken in their backyards. We can’t all catch fish and raise chickens. We’re talking about current large scale food options for millions, and the world.

    • Hi Erica,

      Thanks for your comment. I think if you look at the comments carefully, you’ll see that most of the vegans commenting here believe that vegan choices are ALWAYS better than choices which involve animals. There is no adjusting for context. Most of the comments also imply that if a person who tries a vegan diet doesn’t find that it works for him/her from a physical health perspective, that that MUST MEAN that the person did it wrong. There is no recognition that humans with different genetics may have different needs, and there’s CERTAINLY no coherent plan offered for how to create a sustainable vegan food system.

      In terms of nutritional needs, I offered $100 in exchange for a three day nutritionally complete meal plan for children (my offer is still open, by the way) and I received two of the lamest responses imaginable!

      I also think that the Paleo/Weston Price folks who follow Chris are much more interested in animal welfare than you realize. Dr. Chris Masterjohn, Denise Minger, Melissa McEwan, Dr. Matt Lalonde, and Kresser himself are just a few examples of some really smart thinkers who have devoted followings in the Paleo/Ancestral Health community. These folks originally turned to veganism when they were younger, largely out of a concern for the health and welfare of the entire planet and its inhabitants. Their ideas about animal agriculture evolved but that doesn’t mean that they now dismiss animal welfare as trivial.

      You don’t need to raise your own chickens to make a profound difference in the lives of animals and support sustainable agriculture. However, you DO need to know your farmer. You need to seek out farmer’s markets and CSA’s and talk to your farmer about his/her practices. You can do this whether you live in a rural community, or a place like Harlem, where I used to live. 🙂

      You are absolutely correct in your assertion that CAFO meat is completely unsustainable. Grass-fed meat is, on the contrary, totally sustainable, and I assert that as a person who doesn’t eat meat. I would also contend that a permaculture type of agricultural system which includes livestock is actually less violent than large-scale grain based agriculture. (I hate to keep repeating myself, but large scale organic plant-based agriculture is almost completely dependent on CAFO manure for their fertilizer. Every time you buy from those folks you indirectly support the worst treatment of animals. But that is a topic for another time). 🙂

      By the way: If you want to really explore the science behind why at least some people require animal foods to thrive, I would highly recommend the work of Dr. Chris Masterjohn.

      • And these same CAFOs are the breeding grounds for the deadly strains of e-coli, which kill many people each year.. and no longer just from eating undercooked hamburger* but increasingly from cross-contaminated tomatoes, lettuces, peanuts etc…

        *Anyone else here recall how a gourmet restaurant might serve RAW ground-up steak tartar, or a body-builder drinking a jug of milk with a dozen RAW eggs cracked into it, for breakfast? Nowadays in the USA ,it seems that every restaurant has a warning on the menu about under-cooking meat or eggs and anyone who even handles an egg is so paranoid they need to go wash their hands immediately!

        This is the problem with factory-farming… raising livestock, can be done with respect and compassion for ALL life. I am convinced that this is the only sustainable way forward.

  2. Karin,

    That’s a good answer and makes sense except that we are talking about 290 million people in this country alone and factory farming, not one person with a home garden and a cow. That isn’t the premise anyone is arguing against and to suggest that is the option for most people is not following a linear argument. I live in a city of 8 million, not one of whom has the option to grow their own food. Almost no one does. No doubt that would be optimal and then the argument would not be about the cow. People have an issue mostly with factory farming. Yes there are a few real abolitionist vegans but that is not the discussion here.

  3. OK, I agree. I am convinced. Everyone should be vegan, except, except, except …. for me.
    And I don’t need that much. A couple of cows, some chicken, some fish, some grass (I hope that the vegan world will share), etc.

  4. Actually I believe it was Chris Kresser who set the topic about vegan and vegetarian diets, not vegan “trolls”.

    • Yes, but his intention was to discuss the possibility / practicality of a nutritionally-complete veg*n diet.

      The brigade of veg*n visitors has turned it into a preach-fest about their moral high road. Most of them aren’t contributing anything useful in terms of addressing possible nutritional deficiencies.

  5. I would encourage readers to look at the ever mounting research that plant based diets reduce and often reverse a number of illnesses (heart disease, stroke, diabetes). This does not happen when consuming animal foods. The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine has tons of information, as does “The China Study”. Also one only needs to look at the Blue Zones of the world to see where people live the longest – they eat very little animal products at all, much less daily. In regards to eating tons of soy and grains as a staple, many current vegetarians/vegans do not consume as much soy or none at all as in previous years. Many also eat gluten free. The key is to use whole foods. As with any diet, there are junk food vegetarians/vegans that eat convenience foods out of boxes, or people that use whole foods and cook from scratch. Today’s vegan/vegetarian is not the same as it was even 5 years ago. Many of you keep referring to previous experiences, but those were your experiences based on the knowledge available then to you, not necessarily the same as what is happening now in vegan/vegetarian diets.

    • The China study was totally debunked by Denise Minger.
      She took a few months to thoroughly study it and uncovered staggering faults in it that could not have been done by a simple negligence or mistake. T. Colin Campbell twisted the data on purpose to suit his vegetarian agenda. Denise refutes his book brilliantly. Read her critique for yourself http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/ or watch her presentation here

      • Umm an experienced PhD in nutritional biochemistry up against Denise Minger – not moving me off the fence on this one. He did post a rebuttal to her and was kind in saying:

        “Kudos to Ms. Minger for having the interest, and taking the time, to do considerable analysis, and for describing her findings in readily accessible language. And kudos to her for being clear and admitting, right up front, that she is neither a statistician nor an epidemiologist, but an English major with a love for writing and an interest in nutrition. We need more people with this kind of interest.
        I am the first to admit that background and academic credentials are certainly not everything, and many interesting discoveries and contributions have been made by “outsiders” or newcomers in various fields. On the other hand, background, time in the field, and especially peer review, all do give one a kind of perspective and insight that is, in my experience, not attainable in any other way. I will try to make clear in my comments below when this is particularly relevant.”

        http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html

        So I think my time on this blog is done – hasn’t moved me.

        • So, an ad hominem rebuttal was all you needed to be convince? No addressing of the science necessary? I mean, was that really a rebuttal? Wouldn’t a head-to-head match-up of addressing the facts been more pursuasive than, “well, she’s just a girl and I’m the mighty T. Colon Campbell” be more worthwhile?

          • I see it differently, if I am trying to look at both sides of this issue – why would i not want to review the rebuttal material – that is the nature of debate, thus the reference to the scientist’s rebuttal. No need to respond to me directly as I am not learning anything new via these posts and apparently I am not adding new either. Good bye. Best of health to you.

            • So are you now claiming to have actually read Denise Minger’s initial reassessment of the China Study data, then Dr Campbells’s rebuttal, then her response to him… and so on?

              From your above response it seems that you stopped after reading a third party re-hashing of Dr Campbell’s rebuttal… you had the answer you wanted!

            • … a third-party re-hashing from a clearly vegetarian site… so expecting unbiased commentary there to meet your quest for true knowledge???

        • Denise Minger has posted the complete 11 part series here including links to T. Colin Campbell’s rebuttal and her response to it…

          http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/

          You’ll find that the scientific method is immune to the type of “appeal to authority” exhibited both by Campbell and Fence just above… you don’t get a free pass based on your credentials, no matter who you may be… the facts have to speak for themselves.

          But as suspected, “OnTheFence” was a bit of a misnomer really… just another passive-aggressive ideologue who has a clear agenda and is not open to reason.

          • I am sorry FrankG you feel the need to insult me – I doubt or at least hope you would not talk to me this way in person. You are wrong – you can see my response to Stipectic directly above as well. Good bye. No need to response directly to me.

    • And the PCRM is a vegan organisation… if they were not trying to obfuscate their true agenda they would be more properly called the “Vegan Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.. then folks would be able to see that expecting unbiased “science” from them is about as unlikely as expecting unbiased discussion on race-relations from the Third Reich.

      Indeed this is the same issue I see rampant throughout the comments here… on one side we have folks trying to present a reasoned argument: based on evidence-based-science and following where the data logically leads; while on the other we have an emotion-based agenda rooted in “killing animals is horrid”…

      Whatever your personal reasons for choosing not to eat meat, you are not convincing anyone here with even half-a-brain that it is based in science, nor that it is best for the planet.

      Open your mind and your eyes… look at the “Allan Savory: How to green the world’s deserts and reverse climate change” presentation (as posted just above by Drumroll) for a little insight into why we need livestock

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI

      The buffalo literally made the Great Plains.. then man came along, wasted them all and ploughed it up just so all that topsoil could blow away in the great dust bowl. Now farmers rely heavily on fossil-fuel derived fertilizers and pesticides to grow their crops.. using up valuable, non-renewable resources, while polluting our ecosystem and wiping all kinds of life off their sterile fields. Give them a chance to turn this around and grow real whole food — support local initiatives.

      Now we can talk about compassion to all life.

  6. I think all vegans might be surprised by this extremely insightful view on how raising animals for grazing and meat consumption could potentially reverse soil erosion in the grasslands AND lower the effect of greenhouse gasses on the environment:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI

    It certainly throws two of their most common arguments into contention at least.

  7. Chris Kresser started his post mentioning his awareness of the compassionate concerns of people who choose not to eat animals. I don’t see one meat eater who has the same awareness. People choose to be vegan because they choose not to eat current farm animals who are raised with poor diets, in horrific conditions, slaughtered mercilessly by poor souls who have that horrific task 8 plus hours a day, fed the majority of the antibiotics big pharma produces. It has nothing to do with how our ancestors hunted meat. It has nothing to do with our ancestors at all. It is usually a compassionate choice and with that awareness they are usually, if they do any research, able to figure out how to resolve whatever nutrient deficiencies come along. However considering the vast majority of people eat meat and the country is quickly going down the crapper, I wouldn’t argue for meat being the answer. Is bio-individuality the answer? That each person eats what is best for them? Sure, as long as those who choose to eat meat are as aware of the cost as those who have taken the time to expose themselves to the suffering we protect ourselves from (Albert Schweitzer paraphrase). If you can eat meat once you are mindful that many cows have their legs cut off while they are still alive, go ahead. The difference here is in an awakening of compassion, not micronutrients, past or present. And that is why this conversation never comes to any conclusion – because it is comparing apples to oranges and no one seems able to make an overarching statement of why. The why is compassion that comes from eating like you care about more than yourself. Yes, the planet may still be on it’s last legs but some people still choose to commit to each day as though their choices matter to the whole. OK, meat eaters (and I am not a vegan or vegetarian) let’s hear about how you just want to eat bacon, or you just need it to be healthy…or how it’s just about you.

    • “OK, meat eaters (and I am not a vegan or vegetarian) let’s hear about how you just want to eat bacon, or you just need it to be healthy…or how it’s just about you.”

      So if “not a vegan or vegetarian” what do you eat?

      Beyond that I am getting pretty tired of your overbearing sanctimonious attitude… especially as you also seem to suffer from selective reading comprehension. I personally have responded to you several times already and made my position quite clear as: being firmly against all forms of animal cruelty, of respect for all life and deeply committed to a sustainable and respectful future for humans and all other life on this planet. In my view that includes the rearing and eating of livestock and other animal products.

      I see ALL forms of factory-farming and industrial food production as harmful and unsustainable INCLUDING the vast crop mono-cultures which support this ridiculous “1st world” ideology of veganity.

    • If you can eat vegetables just be mindful that when they are harvested rodents, reptile and baby birds have their legs cut off while still alive and their bodies mangled by harvesters. Go to a farm and watch the threshing machines. Go to a vegetable canning factory and see the dead and dying animals that come down the chute with the spinach. You cannot exist on this planet without taking life. I’m sorry. I know you are tenderhearted and it is beautiful but it is fantasy.

  8. Overall, after reading ALL of these posts and talking to people who have taken different routes to eating and health, I think it should be clear that there simply isn’t ONE right way. People have been able to survive, and thrive, on almost every corner of the globe. It’s about making smart choices and staying away from processed crap. Everyone has an agenda and the arguments both ways have merit, because they can BOTH be right. It’s all a matter of doing what you can do consistently and what you feel is right for you.

  9. This is absolutely exhausting.

    I am 45 and recently discovered I am hypothyroid. I have been overweight from the earliest photos of myself – even as a child. I am 6′ tall and weigh 230. I would like to be 190-200 as I lift weights and really want/like to be active.

    I have tried any number of diets – including going vegan for a month – and have settled on a vegetarian/paleo type diet for myself. I’ve eliminated most sugars and breads from my diet and do not drink milk anymore.

    My wife is vegan/vegetarian and she seems to love it. Only problem is I m just not convinced it is the ‘right way’ for everyone and certainly not the way that humans have been eating for the last several hundred years.

    I, on the other hand, do not feel ‘right’ without a certain amount of animal protein that is mostly consumed in eating eggs, lowfat cheese, cottage cheese and whey protein.

    I recently quit my job last year and started my own business that was my big goal. My big goal this year is to get in the best shape of my life as someone dealing with hypothyroid.

    The years of beating myself up and self loathing are tempered by the fact that I now know I had a seriously underperforming thyroid and thus unable to lose weight like most people.

    So here I am on a Monday about to head to the gym and once again scratching my head over the confusing information and the back-and-forth dialogue of diet and nutrition information.

    The only conclusions that I have come to in regards to food and nutrition so far in my life are these:

    1 ) Keep testing different combinations of healthy unprocessed food to see how my body responds

    2) I will not treat what and how I eat as a religion. I absolutely believe that living things should be treated in a humane way that maximizes their health benefits, however I feel no moral conflict that we should or should not eat animals. I have no patience for people who try and convert others to their belief system (or dietary choices) by asserting their moral high ground.

    3) I believe that it is the chemicals/hormones that is put in most meat, fish and poultry that leads to chronic health diseases. For this I blame our government for their ignorance, their ability to be bought, and desire to treat human beings like cattle.

    4) I believe that my body is strong enough to handle a greasy hamburger and fries or a stack of pancakes with bacon once every 2-3 months.

    5) Sugar, for me, has proven to be one of the worst chemicals I can eat – causing depression, fatigue, anger, irritability and more.

    6) Water is my friend. Drink as much as I can during the day.

    I’m not sure where I was going with this comment but maybe there are other people like me out there who deal with some kind of health issue, and are confused and frustrated over all this back-and-forth information.

    Before I knew about hypothyroid, the answers for me were all about diet and exercise. Now, after being diagnosed, it’s about diet exercise and genetics.

    What I conclude from all this conversation is that every human being is not made to eat one diet, but rather based on their genetics may need certain combinations of nutrients/foods/portions different from the next person and this takes time and experimentation to figure out.

    That’s all I got.

  10. I made the first post in response and I’ve followed the argument since….which is just as I knew it would be. Lots of people splitting hairs about micronutrients when in fact most people won’t even drink an extra cup of water if they don’t feel like it much less pursue all their micronutrient realities in real time – although they can sling the language in message boards. The other thing that gets missed in these discussions is that vegans have mostly watched the videos where they show you cows being hacked apart while still alive, including grass eating cows who still don’t go to happy slaughterhouses, and baby chicks being dumped by the tens of thousands into macerators because they’re male, baby calves being removed from their mothers at birth so we can drink their milk. They are thinking about more than themselves. The meat eaters are to a one talking about themselves and their micronutrients. They never address the whole or others. I’ve eaten meat all my life and I spent not one second pursuing micronutrients in real life. I’m sure I have that in common with, as one person just mentioned, 99% of the American population. The major disease, as expressed by Michio Kuchi, the father of macrobiotics, is arrogance, and that I see in spades in this discussion.

  11. This is another educational video of Dr Jameth Sheridan explaining how some vegans did not eat as nutritionally as they should on a vegan diet and later go back to eating meat.

  12. Dr Jameth Sheridan explains why it is safe to be on a vegan diet. He is a doctor so anyone is welcomed to rebuke him.

  13. I want to say that if I have to rely on animals to live, I would rather have a short existence because such a way of living is just not worth living a long life. I want to be happy and beautiful inside and out. Eating eggs and meat is just ugly and it doesn’t make me feel beautiful.

    If I have to live with any possible non-threatening deficiencies from being vegan then so be it, it would be my willing sacrifice for wanting to live a life away from needing to rely on animals for anything.

    But I still don’t believe that vegans can be deficient because nutritional science is so advanced to provide for any possible lack of nutrients from any diet.

    • “If I have to live with any possible non-threatening deficiencies from being vegan then so be it, it would be my
      willing sacrifice for wanting to live a life away from needing to rely on animals for anything.”

      I used to say the same thing. In a way I still find it sweet, if hopelessly naive. You seem to have no clue about the numbers of non-human lives that people are responsible for taking and/or displacing every single day JUST BY LIVING.

      Do you grow all of your own food? How do you think the organic farmer replaces the nutrients lost when the vegetables are harvested? How do you think the vegetables get to market? Have you ever thought about what it takes to get a coconut from Asia to the United States? Do you even have a GUESS about how many animals, including highly intelligent marine animals are harmed in the process? How about the process of transporting almond milk from California to New York?

      May I ask if you eat any processed foods? Do you even have a CLUE about how VEGAN food processing impacts the world around you?

      • Sharon, you seem like a kind-hearted, good natured person and it is a shame you are so naive. Wanting to be happy and beautiful are wonderful goals but eating meat and eggs isn’t a roadblock to that unless you’ve indoctrinated yourself to think so.

        If you would rather live a short unhealthy life than rely on animal products to survive, well that is your choice but if your ancestors had made it, you wouldn’t be here right now.

        • Nope, I’m not as naive or simple-minded as you think I am. I have done my research in nutrition and am convinced that the vegan path supported with the required supplements is safe for me to lead a healthy and happy life.

          And I don’t follow the fallacy of appealing to nature/tradition so I will gladly use technological advancements in nutritional supplements to help me on the vegan diet.

        • Nope, I’m not as naive or simple-minded as you think I am. I have done my research in nutrition and am convinced that the vegan path supported with the required supplements is safe for me to lead a healthy and happy life.

          And I don’t follow the fallacy of appealing to nature/tradition so I will gladly use advancements in nutritional supplements to help me on the vegan diet.

      • Sorry, but I’ll have to say that the naive person is really you. It is a well known fact that 60 billion land animals are killed annually to satisfy the demand for meat. Thanks for your meat recommendation but I’ll go with the much less cruel, less polluting and more healthy alternative.

        I’ll take my chances with as much advanced supplements as I can and you are welcome to take yours with the cancer-causing toxin-filled meat and dairy.

        • Sharon,

          I regret that I don’t have time at the moment to watch all of the video links that you have provided.

          May I ask what you typically eat and where you purchase your food? It would be enlightening to learn how you grow your food and have it processed and transported to you without involving/harming a single animal.

          As I stated elsewhere in the thread, a homesteading family can sustain itself for a year almost entirely on the milk of a single cow slaughtered at the end of that year, supplemented by a gently-managed garden plot enriched by the cow’s manure. One life given. One life taken.

          A “vegan” family, by contrast, can purchase thousands of pounds of avocados, coconuts, bananas, tomatoes, grains, legumes, etc., etc. etc. over the course of the same year. How many lives are taken by displacement, how many lives are mutilated by tractor blades, snares, and shipping collisions, how many lives are harmed by the extraction of the oil, the greenhouse gases, the water pollution, sound pollution etc.; how many mammals become roadkill in the process of getting that food to that family? If it is possibly greater than one then maybe we have some serious thinking to do about how we evaluate these matters.

          If I were to be reincarnated as an animal I would sooner live the life of that cow than that of an animal killed by some cargo ship transporting coconuts thousands of miles from its source, making our oceans more of a violent cesspool than a habitat. But that is me; I can understand how someone else might come to a different conclusion.

          I think that humane living is a matter of doing the best we can with the information that we have, flawed animals that we are.

          • Karin, you seem to hold on to the notion that one has to always eat in a way so as not to harm a single life such as an ant or fly, which in my opinion is just unrealistic and frankly quite extreme.

            • Hi Sharon,

              I’m so happy to see that you’re back on the thread! Maybe now we can address each other’s specific points/questions.
              🙂

              Anyway Sharon, you stated:

              “Karin, you seem to hold on to the notion that one has to always eat in a way so as not to harm a single life such as an ant or fly, which in my opinion is just unrealistic and frankly quite extreme.”

              On the contrary, I thought I made myself quite clear that it is NOT possible to obtain one’s food without harming other living things, and that in fact, MANY conscious meat eaters eat in a way that actually causes LESS SUFFERING than those who consider themselves “vegans”. When I was “vegan”, for example, I didn’t give nearly enough thought to the tremendous costs associated with trekking things like almond milk, avocados, chia seeds, coconuts, etc. thousands of miles from every corner of the globe in an effort to provide for my daily nutritional needs. I believe now that I was willfully delusional.

              Unfortunately, it seems that you either didn’t understand my last post, or that you deliberately misinterpreted it, so I will repeat some of it below, (with apologies to others reading!) in the sincere hope that we can actually engage in a REAL (rather than a pretend) discussion about the issue that I was raising:

              “A homesteading family can sustain itself for a year almost entirely on the milk of a single cow slaughtered at the end of that year, supplemented by a gently-managed garden plot enriched by the cow’s manure. One life given. One life taken.

              A “vegan” family, by contrast, can purchase thousands of pounds of avocados, coconuts, bananas, tomatoes, grains, legumes, etc., etc. over the course of the same year. How many lives are taken by displacement, how many lives are mutilated by tractor blades, snares, and shipping collisions, how many lives are harmed by the extraction of the oil, the greenhouse gases, the water pollution, sound pollution etc.; how many mammals become roadkill in the process of getting that food to that family? If it is possibly greater than one then maybe we have some serious thinking to do about how we evaluate these matters.”

              Sharon,
              Upon rereading that last paragraph, I hope that you finally realize that I was talking about HORRIFIC VIOLENCE done to some of the most conscious and intelligent animals on earth, not the harm done to a “single ant or fly”. (Perhaps your dainty way of rephrasing the issue was a coping mechanism on your part??)

              Anyway, Sharon, would you agree that in some cases people can do LESS HARM by directly taking the lives of animals than they can in pursuit of a self-entitled vegan fantasy life?

              As I stated earlier, if I were to be reincarnated as an animal I would sooner live the life of that cow than that of a marine mammal mutilated by some cargo ship transporting coconuts thousands of miles from its source.

              I know that vegans think constantly about the horrors of taking lives, and if I were given the option of a life on a factory farm or nothing at all, I would absolutely choose nothing at all.

              HOWEVER, if I were given the option of a short life on a family farm where I would be valued and respected or nothing at all, I would probably say okay to the family farm, even with the knowledge that my life would not be particularly long. Again, the choice is NOT between life or death–It is between having a short life or NO LIFE AT ALL. I would be just as fine with being a cow with the idea of being a zebra or a gazelle, knowing that my last few moments on earth are unlikely to be pleasant. Nothing lasts forever.

              I asked you previously if you had any ideas about how veganic farming would look like from your perspective, because again, almost all self-described vegans are subsisting on food that COULD NOT have been grown without the existence of animal agriculture. I still would love to hear about how you obtain your food and any ideas that you might have for how agriculture would work in a vegan world.

              My final question pertains to the fact that people have different nutritional needs due to genetic/biological differences: Would you agree that at least some people cannot live normal human lives, much less thrive on a plant-only diet?

              For example, I know of one woman who is living on an ALL-MEAT diet for health reasons, due to vast and severe food sensitivities, and that she credits her carnivorous diet with keeping her bipolar disorder in remission. Would you agree that it’s not unethical to take the lives of animals to feed unfortunate humans beings such as this woman, who has sensitivities to grains AND legumes AND nuts AND various fruits and vegetables?

              I’ll stop there for now, because I could go on all night, lol.
              Bye for now!

          • And not willing to take the time to watch a 4 min video yet is willing to express oneself from writing paragraphs of long texts that takes longer, only makes one seem quite willfully ignorant and lazy in research, frankly speaking.

            Sorry but I prefer not to continue a discussion with someone who is not truly earnest and patient enough to desire seeing the bigger picture. I wish you all the best in your hormone, antibiotics and toxin-filled diet.

        • Sharon,

          I am so proud of your video and I just wish it was easier to share the message with other people. I just feel like I have to tell them to watch “Forks Over Knives” and “Food Matters” and other documentaries to see if they will get it! But I have hope that, one by one, we can share this message so that our people can stop dying of cancer and heart diseases! Thank you for helping share the message!!

    • If animals were in our position on the food chain, then wouldn’t give us an ounce of mercy and compassion. Remember that the next time you go on another one of your self aggrandizing rants.

  14. I’ve been vegan for 25 years and consider it one of the best decisions of my life (my doctor agrees). I lost 25 lbs and kept it off all these years!

    Here’s a video to help everyone understand why so many people are making this life affirming choice and why the number of vegans has doubled in the US in less than 3 years.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKr4HZ7ukSE

    Also, here’s a link for everyone who wants to join the revolution: 21-Day Vegan Kickstart http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/kickstart/kickstart-programs

  15. Just wanted to let you know there’s a small typo in the zinc section! “Omniovorous diet” or omnivorous diet? 🙂 Delete this after you’ve read it! No need to keep nit-picky comments like mine.

  16. I have to go to work so don’t have time to read. I’ll read later. At work there are too many vegetarians. I believe one picked it up to suck up to the others. I notice they always get cold and are cranky. They’re all women of course, and I think witchy is a better word.

  17. I continue to spread the word about your site and sound advice that is so well documented. Your information has been crucial to resolving my heartburn and esophageal spasms that were so bad, it was causing me to lose my voice. After seeing specialists, I was diagnosed with GERD and prescribed prevacid and gaviscon which failed to work. It was your article, “Get rid of heartburn and GERD forever in 3 simple steps” that put me on the road to recovery. I was tested positive for H-pylori which was cleared up with an H-Pac and now I follow your guidelines and have been heartburn free for 6 months plus my voice has returned to “almost normal”!

    I purchased your book which is amazing but it is your dedication to this site that has been a life-saver for many of us who read it faithfully. Thank you so much for all the hard work you do. Best wishes in all that you do.

    • I wanted to add that the doctors recommended a low-acid, vegetarian diet which I tried for a few months and only felt worse. The legumes were particularly difficult for me to digest no matter how I tried to cook them. My stomach felt like it was cannibalizing itself. Once I cleared up the H-Pylori and resumed a regular Paleo diet, my health was back to normal within weeks. I am not saying that what worked for me would work for the next person but I would suggest they at least try it if they are experiencing the same symptoms as I did.

      This post is also to express concern for the increasing personal attacks, not at the data, but at the people posting. Why is this moving away from an adult discussion of the data to a “if you are not with us, you are against us” mentality? We all have the personal choice to eat what we want and this forum is simply another place to provide us with specific information regarding these choices. It is only one part of a toolkit that you compile to live your life.

      IF you find that some of the information conflicts with what you believe in, then by all means, present your argument. But don’t let it get personal because then your message is lost and where is the value in that?

      Thank you again Chris for your hard work and information that works for me.

  18. I have read this whole string of “crap”. I find it peculiar that there are only Vegans/Vegetarians testifying that they eventually had to start to eat real food after a 5, 10, 20 year stint of not. It takes a lot of courage to Denise Minger/Lierre Keith yourself and admit you were damaging your body.

    What is absolutely hilarious is with every testimony a Vego will pop on and say “you weren’t doing it right!” Are you kidding me! When you make an active choice to eat Vego, it aint easy, it is like a full time job! Eating correctly is not that tuff, eat real food. It strikes me that a complete Vego diet is nothing more than a hodgepodge of side dishes from around the world that were meant to be eaten with some form of animal product. But instead of the animal products the side dishes are put together 3 to 6 at a time in an attempt to replicate something healthy.

    The other peculiar thing is, Kressers web site is like the last place I would expect to see Vegos in full force. Which confirms that the McDougal / Ornish Vego propaganda notification networks is still alive and well. In other words post anything on the interwebs that may even slightly question the Vegos and prepare for mountains of bullshit propaganda, and statements like, “meat rots in your gut” which disqualifies the poster as having a working frontal lobe.

    Eat real food. It is that easy. And for those of you all touchy feely about killing things, thank your lucky stars you live in the “now” because if it were 200 years ago, life would have been really rough for you.

    • Amen. It is only in the last few generations that people haven’t had to kill for their meals. My grandparents had to raise and kill their own chickens in post-war Europe because there was little else to eat. I am grateful I don’t have to do that but I would if I had to. Even when I was vegan, I knew that was reality and the convenience of industrial society is what has allowed veganism to thrive… which is why they are causing as much harm as good (at least as much as the rest of us).

  19. From the Vegan Society website (so ironic isn’t it): A study in the UK of 34,696 adults, over five years, found that the vegans studied had a higher risk of bone fracture than the meat eaters, fish eaters and vegetarians studied. This appeared to be a result of their lower calcium intake – no increase in risk was found in those vegans consuming at least 525 mg of calcium per day – and highlights the importance of ensuring an adequate intake of calcium.4 Recommended intakes are given in Calcium Requirements above.

  20. After reading all the comments here, my disdain for Vegans has been re-verified. The ego of Vegans knows no bounds.I was ‘fluffy’ as a vegetarian and only got lean and had much more energy when I added meat back to my diet. Same with my son-in-law who was forced to be vegetarian by his dad and was chubby until he started eating meat. Only in fantasyland is being vegan or vegetarian not based on starchy carbs and grains. If you choose to not eat meat or dairy—good for you. But keep your big vegan nose out of my business—because meat is good for many people as we are all individuals. This concept seems impossible for Vegans to accept.

    • You guys didn’t know how to eat right. Did you know vitamins A D E and K require fats to be carried within the body? Do you also know where to get iodine, and do you also get sufficient vitamin D, sodium and fats?

      • “You guys didn’t know how to eat right”

        Exactly– You have a point, because to ‘eat right’ we needed eggs and meat, which we eat now and have energy, muscle definition and have lost the fluff from grains.