This is an update of an article I published in 2011. I affirm that animal products are among the most nutrient-dense foods you can eat and that vegetarians and vegans are at risk for multiple nutrient deficiencies. I have included up-to-date research and expanded the list of nutrients that are often lacking in vegetarian and vegan diets.
Maybe you have considered going vegetarian or vegan for the health benefits. Or maybe you know someone who feels strongly about it as an ethical choice, and you wonder if they can really follow the diet in a healthy way. I respect these reasons and appreciate anyone who thinks deeply about the social and spiritual impact of their food choices—even if my own exploration of these questions has led me to a different answer.
But many choose a vegetarian diet because they’re under the impression that it’s a healthier choice from a nutritional perspective. It is this last reason that I’d like to address in this article. For the last 50-plus years, we’ve been told that meat, eggs, and animal fats are bad for us and that we’ll live longer and enjoy superior health if we minimize or avoid them. This idea has been so thoroughly drilled into our heads that few people even question it anymore. In fact, if you asked the average person on the street whether a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthier than an omnivorous diet, they’d probably say yes. But is this really true?
If You Want Nutrient-Dense Foods, You Need to Eat Animal Products
Plant-based diets emphasize vegetables, which are quite nutrient dense, and fruits, which are somewhat nutrient dense. They also typically include large amounts of cereal grains (refined and unrefined) and legumes, both of which are low in bioavailable nutrients and high in anti-nutrients like phytate. Most importantly, vegetarian and vegan diets eschew organ meats, other meats, and fish and shellfish, which are among the most nutrient-dense foods you can eat. (1)
Followers of vegetarian and vegan diets, beware: You could be missing out on B12, iron, calcium, and other key nutrients. Is it time to rethink your diet plan and add meat back to your plate? Find out. #nutrientdensefoods #paleocure.
Vegan diets, in particular, are almost completely devoid of certain nutrients that are crucial for physiological function. Deficiencies can take months or years to develop, and many are easily missed because they are not routinely tested for in primary care settings. Several studies have shown that both vegetarians and vegans are prone to deficiencies in:
- Vitamin B12
- Calcium
- Iron
- Zinc
- Long-chain fatty acids EPA and DHA
- Fat-soluble vitamins like A and D
Let’s take a closer look at each of these nutrients.
Vegetarian and Vegan Diets Don’t Provide Enough Vitamin B12
B12 deficiency is especially common in vegetarians and vegans. To properly evaluate B12 status, total serum vitamin B12 isn’t enough. A better marker for vitamin B12 is holotranscobalamin II, the biologically active fragment, which should be measured along with total homocysteine and methylmalonic acid. Low B12 is correlated with low holotranscobalamin II, while homocysteine and methylmalonic acid are usually increased in later stages of vitamin B12 deficiency. (2) The most recent studies using more sensitive techniques for detecting B12 deficiency have found that up to 77 percent of vegetarians and 92 percent of vegans are B12 deficient, compared to just 11 percent of omnivores. (3, 4, 5)
Vitamin B12 works together with folate in the synthesis of DNA and red blood cells. It’s also involved in the production of the myelin sheath around the nerves and the conduction of nerve impulses. B12 deficiency can cause numerous symptoms, including:
- Fatigue
- Lethargy
- Weakness
- Memory loss
- Neurological and psychiatric problems
- Anemia
- And much more …
It’s a common myth among vegetarians and vegans that it’s possible to get B12 from plant sources like:
- Seaweed
- Fermented soy
- Spirulina
- Brewer’s yeast
These plant foods don’t contain B12. They contain B12 analogs, called cobamides, that block the intake of—and increase the need for—true B12. (6) Researchers have identified purple laver nori (seaweed) as a plant source of bioavailable B12; however, it could contain high levels of cadmium and arsenic. (7, 8, 9, 10) More studies are needed, but there is a potentially serious problem with relying on purple laver nori for adequate B12.
If You’re Vegan, You Might Be Missing out on Calcium
You know that calcium is important for bone health, but did you know it’s essential for muscle and nerve function and that it’s involved in blood clotting? On paper, calcium intake is similar in vegetarians and omnivores (probably because both eat dairy products). Vegans, however, are often deficient. (11, 12, 13)
Calcium bioavailability from plant foods is affected by their levels of oxalate and phytate, which are inhibitors of calcium absorption and thus decrease the amount of calcium the body can extract from plant foods. (10) So while leafy greens like spinach and kale have a relatively high calcium content, the calcium is not efficiently absorbed during digestion.
One study suggests that it would take 16 servings of spinach to get the same amount of absorbable calcium as an eight-ounce glass of milk. (14) That would be 33 cups of baby spinach or around five or six cups of cooked spinach. There are a few vegetables listed in this paper that have higher levels of bioavailable calcium, but it’s important to note that all of the vegetables tested required multiple servings to achieve the same amount of usable calcium as one single serving of milk, cheese, or yogurt.
This suggests that trying to meet your daily calcium needs from plant foods alone might not be a great strategy. For those who don’t tolerate dairy well, fish with edible bones like sardines are great sources of calcium on a Paleo diet.
You’re Also More Likely to Be Iron-Deficient on a Plant-Based Diet
Vegetarians and omnivores often have similar levels of serum iron, but levels of ferritin—the long-term storage form of iron—are lower in vegetarians than in omnivores. (15, 16) This is significant, because ferritin depletion is the first stage of iron deficiency.
For example, this study of 75 vegan women in Germany found that 40 percent of them were iron deficient, despite average iron intakes that were above the recommended daily allowance. (17) Among Australian men, iron intake among vegetarians and vegans was 29 to 49 percent higher than omnivores, but their serum ferritin concentrations were barely half that of omnivores. (18) Despite similar iron intakes, another study published this year showed vegans and female vegetarians having low ferritin levels. (19)
Why would this be? As with calcium, the bioavailability of the iron in plant foods (nonheme iron) is much lower than in animal foods (heme iron). Plant-based forms of iron are also inhibited by other commonly consumed substances, such as:
- Coffee
- Tea
- Dairy products
- Supplemental fiber
- Supplemental calcium
This explains why vegetarian diets have been shown to reduce nonheme iron absorption by 70 percent and total iron absorption by 85 percent. (20, 21)
Red Meat, Fish, and Poultry Are Your Best Sources for Zinc
Zinc is important for the immune system, cell growth, and wound healing. You won’t usually see overt zinc deficiency in Western vegetarians, but their intake often falls below recommendations, probably because red meat, poultry, and fish are the best sources.
This is another case where bioavailability is important; many plant foods that contain zinc also contain phytate, which inhibits zinc absorption. Vegetarian diets tend to reduce zinc absorption by about 35 percent compared with an omnivorous diet. (22) Thus, even when the diet meets or exceeds the RDA for zinc, deficiency may still occur. (23) One study suggested that vegetarians may require up to 50 percent more zinc than omnivores for this reason. (24) A meta-analysis of 34 studies found that both zinc intakes and serum zinc concentrations were lower in vegetarians than non-vegetarians. (25)
You Might Be Missing out on the Benefits of Essential Fatty Acids
Plant foods do contain linoleic acid (omega-6) and alpha-linolenic acid (ALA, omega-3), both of which are considered essential fatty acids. In this context, an essential fatty acid is one that can’t be synthesized by the body and must be obtained in the diet. However, an increasing body of research has highlighted the benefits of the long-chain omega-3 fatty acids EPA and DHA. These fatty acids play a protective and therapeutic role in a wide range of diseases: (26, 27)
- Cancer
- Asthma
- Depression
- Alzheimer’s disease
- Cardiovascular disease
- ADHD
- Autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis
While it is possible for some ALA from plant foods to be converted into EPA and DHA, that conversion is poor in humans: between 5 and 10 percent for EPA and 2 and 5 percent for DHA. (28)
Although no official recommendation exists, the daily suggested intake of combined DHA and EPA is around 250 to 500 mg. In theory, this means vegans and vegetarians would need to consume between five and 12.5 grams of ALA per day to obtain 250 mg of DHA. In reality, vegetarians and vegans consume merely 0.97 g/day and 0.86 g/day of ALA, respectively, according to a study of over 14,000 Americans. (29)
Vegetarians have 30 percent lower levels of EPA and DHA than omnivores, while vegans have 50 percent lower EPA and nearly 60 percent lower DHA. (30, 31) Moreover, the conversion of ALA to DHA depends on zinc, iron, selenium, and pyridoxine—nutrients that vegetarians and vegans are less likely than omnivores to get enough of. (32, 33, 34, 35) Eating 12 to 16 ounces of cold-water fatty fish per week remains the best way to get adequate EPA and DHA. The fish will also provide bioavailable protein and selenium.
Vitamins A and D: What You’re Missing
Fat-soluble vitamins play numerous and critical roles in human health. Vitamin A promotes healthy immune function, fertility, eyesight, and skin. Vitamin D regulates calcium metabolism, regulates immune function, reduces inflammation, and protects against some forms of cancer.
These important fat-soluble vitamins are concentrated, and in some cases found almost exclusively, in animal foods like:
- Seafood
- Organ meats
- Eggs
- Dairy products
Some obscure species of mushrooms can provide large amounts of vitamin D, but these mushrooms are rarely consumed and often difficult to obtain. This explains why vitamin D levels are often low in vegetarians and even lower in vegans. (36, 37, 38, 39)
The idea that plant foods contain vitamin A is a common misconception. Plants contain beta-carotene, the precursor to active vitamin A (retinol). While beta-carotene is converted into vitamin A in humans, the conversion is inefficient. (40, 41) For example, a single serving of liver per week would meet the RDA of 3,000 IU. To get the same amount from plant foods, you’d have to eat two cups of carrots, one cup of sweet potatoes, or two cups of kale every day.
Moreover, traditional cultures consumed up to 10 times the current RDA for vitamin A. It would be nearly impossible to get this amount of vitamin A from plant foods without juicing or taking supplements. And if supplements aren’t consumed with a fatty meal, the actual absorption will be low. (42)
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Vegans and Vegetarians, You Could Be Missing These Key Nutrients
If you don’t eat meat or other animal products, you could also be missing out on:
- Choline
- Creatine
- Taurine
- Methionine
- Glycine
- Selenium
Choline
Vegetarian and vegan diets, along with the Standard American Diet, pose risks of choline deficiency. (43) Choline is required for:
- Healthy cell membrane function
- Methylation
- Cognitive development in children
It’s so important that the FDA recently set a daily recommended intake of 550 mg for men and 425 mg for women, which should increase to 450 mg during pregnancy and 550 mg during breastfeeding. Recent research suggests that only 8.5 percent of women meet the daily choline requirement. (44) With egg yolks and organ meats as the most potent sources of choline, it’s not surprising that even omnivores are not getting enough. This is another reason I encourage giving organ meat dishes another try.
Creatine
Creatine plasma and muscle levels are usually lower in vegetarians than in omnivores, as meat provides the richest source of creatine. (45) Creatine may play an important role in cognitive function. A randomized controlled trial found that six weeks of oral creatine supplementation significantly improved vegetarians’ performance on tests of fluid intelligence and working memory. The difference in scores between groups was enormous. (46)
Another study found that creatine supplementation in vegetarians improved memory, while having no effect on fluid intelligence or working memory in meat-eaters. (47) These results suggest that vegetarians’ baseline scores may have been impaired due to low creatine intake.
Taurine
Taurine has a central role as a neurotransmitter, promotes the development of the central nervous system, and upholds the structure of cell membranes. Although the body can synthesize small amounts of taurine, vegetarians and vegans often still have low plasma and urinary taurine levels because taurine is found primarily in animal products. (48, 49) Low plasma taurine in newborns is associated with lower scores on mental development and arithmetic tests at age seven, suggesting that dietary taurine aids in neural development. (50)
Methionine
Methionine is another amino acid that is restricted on a plant-based diet. Low methionine intake has been linked to longevity in scientific research. However, methionine is still an essential amino acid, and too little methionine may impair detoxification and reduce fertility. (51, 52) After being activated using ATP, methionine becomes the universal methyl donor.
On the flip side, too much methionine can also pose problems. After methyl donation, methionine becomes homocysteine and must be recycled back to methionine by B12, folate, or betaine (derived from choline). Because meat is high in methionine, diets heavy in muscle meats but low in connective tissues can result in increased homocysteine levels, a risk factor for CVD.
That said, studies have shown that vegetarians and vegans have significantly higher homocysteine levels on average than omnivores. (53) In one study, the average homocysteine level among vegetarians was 13.9 nmol/L and among vegans, 16.4 nmol/L, compared to 11.3 nmol/L for omnivores. (54) This puts most vegetarians and vegans in a range that carries significant risk of CVD. In fact, according to one study, the prevalence of hyperhomocysteinemia among vegetarians may actually be higher than that among non-vegetarians already diagnosed with heart disease. (55)
Glycine
Vegetarians and vegans don’t consume as much glycine as meat-eaters, as the richest sources are the “odd bits” of animal foods, like: (56)
- Skin
- Bones
- Collagen
- Gelatin
Glycine is one of the building blocks of collagen, found in our connective tissues. In addition to its structural role, glycine can also act as a neurotransmitter, plays a role in blood sugar regulation, and stimulates the production of glutathione, the body’s master antioxidant. (57, 58, 59, 60)
Some Paleo dieters can be susceptible to low glycine intake, too, if they are eating tons of muscle meat and ignoring the “nose-to-tail” philosophy. Glycine helps balance out methionine levels, in part by acting as a buffer for excess methyl groups. Low choline and glycine intake, common in vegetarians and vegans, can further contribute to high homocysteine levels and increased risk of CVD. Eating bone broth regularly can help balance glycine/methionine levels.
Selenium
While a few studies show no difference in selenium status among diet types, most research shows lower intake and/or levels in vegetarians and vegans compared to omnivores, including one study that measured glutathione peroxidase, a selenium-dependent enzyme and an excellent marker of active selenium status. (61, 62, 63, 64) Selenium has a role in immune function, supports thyroid hormone synthesis, and protects the thyroid from excess iodine damage. (65, 66) Selenium also helps prevent mercury toxicity. (67)
Selenium deficiency is also common in those with digestive health issues like Crohn’s disease or celiac disease. (68, 69) The best sources of selenium include:
- Brazil nuts
- Crimini mushrooms
- Some sea foods
- Chicken
- Eggs
- Lamb
- Turkey
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Eating Animal Products Could Also Help Your Thyroid Health
Thyroid hormone synthesis requires iodine, a nutrient that can be lacking from omnivore and plant-based diets alike. Most iodine comes from the sea; the soil—and therefore vegetables grown in soil—usually contains very little. In a typical mixed diet, the highest sources of iodine are iodized salt and animal products like:
- Dairy products
- Eggs
- Seafood
Vegetarians and vegans are at risk for low iodine intake. (70)
In the Boston area, urinary iodine levels in vegans were barely half that of vegetarians, and vegans were at high risk of iodine deficiency. (71) Several studies of Scandinavian populations confirm that vegans finished last in iodine intake and/or urinary iodine levels. (72, 73, 74) To make matters worse, isoflavones found in soy products, which are sometimes consumed in large quantities in vegan and vegetarian diets, may exacerbate iodine deficiency and hypothyroidism. (75)
But even those following a Paleo template can be at risk for iodine deficiency if they are not regularly consuming seafood. (76) Sea vegetables, especially kelp, are the highest sources of iodine ounce for ounce.
Your Kids Need Nutrient-Dense Foods to Thrive
Because of the prevailing idea in our culture that vegetarian and vegan diets are healthy, more and more children are being raised from birth (and even from conception!) on meat-free diets. Both the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (AND) and USDA have said that vegetarian and vegan diets are safe during pregnancy, but critical analyses by several researchers have questioned whether these recommendations are based on sufficient evidence. One review remarked that “the evidence on vegan–vegetarian diets in pregnancy is heterogeneous and scant,” suggesting that more research is needed to answer the question of whether they are, in fact, safe during pregnancy. (77)
Vegetarian and vegan diets for children carry significant risks of nutrient deficiencies that can have dire health consequences. (78, 79, 80)
Studies have shown that kids raised until age six on a vegan diet are still B12 deficient years after adding at least some animal products to their diet. One study found an association between B12 status and measures of intelligence and memory, with formerly vegan kids scoring lower than omnivorous kids. (81) Devastating case studies have reported B12 deficiency in young vegan children that have led to neurological damage and developmental delays. (82, 83)
Low nutrient intake extends beyond vitamin B12. Other case studies have attributed hypothyroidism in young children to a maternal and/or childhood vegan diet. (84, 85) Compared to omnivores, breast milk from vegan mothers had lower levels of DHA and EPA, which are vital for brain development, especially in the first year of life, when a baby’s brain literally doubles in size. (83) In short, just like adults, children on vegetarian and vegan diets often have lower intakes of iron, iodine, vitamin A, zinc, and more.
Your Best Choice for Optimal Nutrition Isn’t a Vegetarian or Vegan Diet, but a Paleo Template
With care and attention, I think it’s possible to meet most of your nutrient needs with a vegetarian diet that includes liberal amounts of pasture-raised, full-fat dairy and eggs, with one exception: EPA and DHA. These long-chain omega fats are found exclusively in marine algae and fish and shellfish, so the only way to get them on a vegetarian diet would be to take a microalgae supplement or bend the rules and take fish oil or cod liver oil as a supplement. (86) Still, while it may be possible to obtain adequate nutrition on a vegetarian diet, it is not optimal—as the research above indicates.
I don’t think it’s possible to meet nutrient needs on a vegan diet without supplements—and quite a few of them. Vegan diets are low in:
- B12
- Bioavailable iron and zinc
- Choline
- Vitamins A and D
- Calcium
- EPA and DHA
It’s worth pointing out that there are genetic differences that affect the conversion of certain nutrient precursors (like beta-carotene and alpha-linolenic acid) into the active forms of those nutrients (like retinol and EPA and DHA, respectively), and these differences may affect how long someone will be able to follow a vegetarian or vegan diet before they develop nutrient deficiencies. This explains why some people seem to do well for years on these diets, while others develop problems very quickly.
Is It Time to Rethink Your Diet?
From an evolutionary perspective, is difficult to justify a diet with low levels of several nutrients critical to human function. While it may be possible to address these shortcomings through targeted supplementation (an issue that is still debated), it makes far more sense to meet your nutritional needs from food.
This is especially important for children, who are still developing and are even more sensitive to suboptimal intake of the nutrients discussed in this article. Like all parents, vegetarians and vegans want the best for their children. Unfortunately, many are not aware of the potential for nutrient deficiencies posed by their dietary choices.
I hope this article can serve as a resource for anyone on a plant-based diet, whether they choose to start eating meat (or animal products, in the case of vegans) again or not.
I think everything is okay in moderation.
Try to eat balanced, try to eat ‘clean’ healthy foods.
Look after yourself, workout and be happy!
Who cares if you are vegan, vegetarian or eat meat, or only white meat, or hate eggs, or dont like olives!
Find a balance, be happy in yourself, dont judge others for their choices and you will find yourself not being so uptight having to defend your own choices!
AND FYI I have been a vegan, current vegetarian and ate meat!
I still cook meat for my partner! I dont care!
Just be happy and try to do the right thing by YOUR health, not by the standards and opinions of others, or by articles written for a majority of people, not individuals (which we all are!)
You have no true facts to back what you are writing. An amino acid is an amino acid. Your body does not know the difference. The only leg you stand on is more protein per calorie. So what? B12 is found in soil that is why it is in meat, from grazing and eating plants. It can be supplemented quite easily. It is known that you are a paleo follower. Furthermore, you fail to mention the horrors that animals go through to become food. There is no such thing as humanely raised and slaughtered meat that is sold to the public. Articles like this are infuriating.
It is called local farms. My family owns one and knows many farmers in the surrounding states. They raise them in a field, let them graze on the land, and when in comes time to slaughter them, they it do it one at a time. That is life as it has always been. I am not a paleo follower, I stated in my article, that any restrictive diet is inefficient! Enjoy taking supplements! I will enjoy eating 8 eggs with yolk, 1.5lbs of meat every day, along with fruits, veges and grains. I have went to the doctor and have received numerous blood tests… Cholesterol levels are great, triglycerides levels are great, blood pressure, water and fat soluble micro-nutrient uptake efficient, etc…
My facts are the family members, random people’s family members, that grew up on farms eating meat and lard, and are living 95+ years, walking around and not in wheel chairs, enjoying life as life should be.
But do what makes you happy, I could give you all the facts in the world to support my view, as people have on here already. Nothing I say will change your view, I am ok with that. Like great people have said before me… More meat for me!!!
Vegans and Vegetarians, who believe they are being attacked when they are the ones judging others just the same, frustrate me greatly. As well as, argue, with a restrictive diet, that it is better than a non-restricted diet that includes: local, well treated and fed animals; variety of fruits and vegetables; nuts and seeds; and non-processed grains. Any food intake “diet” that restricts any whole food product, is inefficient. I do not care how healthy you feel, most, if not all vegetarians and vegans lack proper muscle and bone strength.
I am sure, the vegetarian or vegan that will argue with me, that has muscle, is taking supplements… And without supplements, the person that eats a variety of meat, fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, and grains; are the only people that will not be deficient in nutrients.
As a general guideline for daily protein intake:
–1 gram of protein per bodyweight in kg is needed in a Sedentary person, not doing anything; 1.2 – 2.0 grams of protein per bodyweight in kg is needed and recommended the more active a person is, and the stronger they want to be. If you just run and do not lift weights and tell me you cannot do squats, you further made my point, so thanks.
If you study those who grew up and work on farms, that eat all natural meat, veges, fruits, grains, etc; as stated above… Most always you here about them living 95 + years. Every older man or woman that I have talked to, and tell them about nonrestrictive diets, that has a parent or relative that was a farmer, stated that their relative lived 95 + years.
In conclusion, if you are skinny and feel healthy being a vegan or vegetarian, no matter what you say to justify your eating patterns, it is still a restrictive eating style, and inefficient in certain aspects. Any restrictive diet, is inefficient, even if it is not a vegetarian or vegan diet. So, this is not just a bash at those who are vegan or vegetarians, so don’t take it personally. Rather, take it in, understand, and accept it. You don’t have to change if you don’t want to, but stop trying to convince people that it is healthier to eat a restrictive way!!
Medical Doctor here….. I think it’s important to be able to critically appraise evidence and not just accept a reader’s interpretation of one particular study as truth. I was happy to see that someone posted a full rebuttal against this article (see above comment from Adam- Thanks, Adam!). Give it a read everyone, it might make you think twice about some of the arguments being made here.
So I read through a few of the comments, and finally got to a chance to take a look at Adam’s article, and I came across the following paragraph:
In his dismissal of Kresser’s comments about Vitamin A, Adam states:
“I was quite shocked to find Vitamin A in this list of possible nutrient deficiencies. Not surprisingly, the author does not provide links to any peer-reviewed publication, but rather links to a page by the Weston Price Foundation which is an organization known to advocate the consumption of animal products.”
This the same Adam who wrote this to one commenter:
“I judge all arguments based on scientific merit, regardless of what side they come from.”
And this to another:
“If all you can do is dismiss claims based on what side of the fence you think they are coming from, then frankly, I am not interested in debating anything with you.”
But somehow Adam feels comfortable dismissing Dr. Chris Masterjohn’s masterful work, with over 70 scientific references, because he doesn’t like the site where it appears. Does anyone else see the irony?
Back to the article. Adam then goes on to state: “Arguing Vitamin A deficiency because conversion of beta-carotene is inefficient is a massive over-simplification and is not an argument for eating meat that stands up to scrutiny.”
Well, let’s see:
Variability of the conversion of beta-carotene to vitamin A in women measured by using a double-tracer study design.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10837297
“Blood beta-carotene and vitamin A responses to oral beta-carotene are variable in humans. Some individuals are characterized as responders and others as low- or nonresponders.
Variability in conversion of beta-carotene to vitamin A in men as measured by using a double-tracer study design
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11976165
“The vitamin A activity of beta-carotene, even when measured under controlled conditions, can be surprisingly low and variable.”
The contribution of β-carotene to vitamin A supply of humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21957049
“We conclude that a safe vitamin A intake in general cannot be reached by consuming only one component (vitamin A or β-carotene) alone, even in Western countries where animal products are commonly available.”
Lipids and Vitamin A and E Status in Vegetarian Children
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15213372
“In the group of vegetarian children mean plasma concentration of vitamin A and E was statistically lower as compared to those in non-vegetarian children.”
The challenge to reach nutritional adequacy for vitamin A: β-carotene bioavailability and conversion–evidence in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23053560
“β-Carotene is an important dietary source of vitamin A for humans. However, the bioavailability and vitamin A equivalency of β-carotene are highly variable and can be affected by food- and diet-related factors, including the food matrix, food-processing techniques, size of the dose of β-carotene, and the amounts of dietary fat, fiber,vitamin A, and other carotenoids in the diet as well as by characteristics of the target population, such as vitamin A status, nutrient deficiencies, gut integrity, and genetic polymorphisms associated with β-carotene metabolism. The absorption of β-carotene from plant sources ranges from 5% to 65% in humans. Vitamin A equivalency ratios for β-carotene to vitamin A from plant sources range from 3.8:1 to 28:1, by weight.”
Assessment and control of vitamin A deficiency: the Annecy Accords
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12221259
“Clinical trials and kinetic models indicate that young children in developing countries cannot achieve normal vitamin A status from plant diets alone. Fortification, supplementation, or other means of increasing vitamin A intake are needed to correct widespread deficiency. To improve the status of young infants, the vitamin A supplements provided to mothers during their first 6 wk postpartum and to young infants during their first 6 mo of life should be doubled.”
I think that these three statements bear repeating:
1. “The absorption of Beta carotene from plant sources ranges from 5% to 65% in humans.”
2. “Clinical trials and kinetic models indicate that young children in developing countries cannot achieve normal vitamin A status from plant diets alone.”
3. “We conclude that a safe vitamin A intake in general cannot be reached by consuming only one component (vitamin A or β-carotene) alone, even in Western countries where animal products are commonly available.”
So Dr. Bethany and Adam,
If 10,000 vegan pregnant women come to Adam’s site looking for nutritional information, and conclude based on the information provided there that there is no need to supplement with pre-formed Vitamin A, are you both comfortable with that? No potential problems there?
I don’t think Mr. Kresser is arguing that ALL vegetarians or ALL vegans are going to be deficient in any particular nutrient. I do think that he is arguing that SOME are…..because they are getting information that is grossly oversimplified and overly generalized….with really tragic consequences for many. And I agree.
And if I’m the fetus of a low- or non-responder to beta-carotene, I might grow up to think that folks like you should have been a little more careful about dismissing the issue as trivial…..provided that I’m lucky enough to grow up and develop into a fully functioning adult, that is.
Humans are not all the same–they are both complex and special. 🙂 I am both shocked and horrified that I have to explain this to both an M.D. AND a PhD. candidate in the same place….
Hear hear Karin 🙂
because it bears repeating…
“So Dr. Bethany and Adam,
If 10,000 vegan pregnant women come to Adam’s site looking for nutritional information, and conclude based on the information provided there that there is no need to supplement with pre-formed Vitamin A, are you both comfortable with that? No potential problems there?
I don’t think Mr. Kresser is arguing that ALL vegetarians or ALL vegans are going to be deficient in any particular nutrient. I do think that he is arguing that SOME are…..because they are getting information that is grossly oversimplified and overly generalized….with really tragic consequences for many. And I agree.
And if I’m the fetus of a low- or non-responder to beta-carotene, I might grow up to think that folks like you should have been a little more careful about dismissing the issue as trivial…..provided that I’m lucky enough to grow up and develop into a fully functioning adult, that is.”
And the veg*n response we keep getting to this line of reasoning..? “You weren’t doing it right” For shame!
Yes, beta-carotene conversion from plants is low. Yes, vegans tend to have lower Vitamin A status compared to omnivores. Beta-carotene is only one of hundreds of different carotenoids in plants. To equate low beta-carotene conversion with Vitamin A deficiency is an error. If you do that, you’re no better than people that infer causation from studies showing correlation between meat consumption and heart disease.
The fact that children in developing countries are deficient is not surprising. Vitamin A status is not only affected by dietary intake, but by the health of the individual – infection can negatively affect Vitamin A levels, and repeated infections can deplete stores over time.
http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBJN%2FBJN27_02%2FS0007114572001199a.pdf&code=edfb306fca01e3cabb451e4f5abcf862
In addition, children get most of their Vitamin A from their mother’s breast milk. If the mother is deficient, then the deficiency can easily be passed on to the next generation. If we add to the mix the fact that poverty is common in developing countries, food selection is less diverse than developed nations, and access to health care is sub-par, it’s pretty easy to see why infant mortality from nutritional deficiencies is so prevalent in these regions.
If you know of any hard data showing higher mortality in veg*ns resulting from Vitamin A deficiencies in developed nations, I would love to see it.
As for the 10,000 vegans, they should be consulting their physicians and addressing any deficiencies (including Vitamin A) that are present before getting pregnant, just like ALL women should do.
As has already been pointed out… all this vegan talk is a First World elitist fantasy/ideology… that doesn’t apply to the real world. How many women in developing countries have the luxury of ready access to a Doctor and blood tests… or planned pregnancies for that matter?
And if they were deficient in ay nutrients during pregnancy, or while breastfeeding… well I guess they just weren’t “doing it right”! Just so long as no animals were harmed.. eh?!?
And as it seems to need repeating: Chris Kresser’s article is titled “Why You Should Think Twice About Vegetarian and Vegan Diets”
…rather than “Why NO-ONE Should EVER EAT A Vegetarian OR Vegan Diet”
But then you’d get much less bank for your buck trying to “debunk” a reasonable caution.. much better to make a straw-man out of it.
Funny that you point out the cautionary nature of the article, yet you have the most comments, all of which essentially boil down to the same “vegan propaganda” argument that you use to jump down the throat of anyone with the slightest resistance to your views, including other omnivores.
At least some people around here, like Karin, are actually scientifically literate and can present their arguments logically.
I don’t think it’s funny at all.
I take the health of humans, including the ecosystem which supports us, very seriously indeed.
Frank, I admire you for striving to remain civil. Many people have remarkably little understanding of the complexities of these issues, and can’t think of a single intelligent or relevant thing to say, so they throw wild punches, hoping to provoke someone, if they can’t shut them up altogether. Or they resort to simplistic phrases like “Vegan=holistic Meat eater=me” -as if that is somehow a compelling or persuasive argument in the context of a conversation about human nutrition and physiology!
I am sorry that it offends certain commenters that some of us want to talk about human health and nutrition on a site that is devoted to the topic of human health and nutrition, but the fact of the matter is that this particular article is ABOUT human health and nutrition! If that makes me a “self-centered meat-eater” in Ms. Martell’s eyes (despite the fact that I don’t even happen to eat meat) then I can live with that.
Now, let’s get back to the topic of Vitamin A. 🙂
So Andy, you stated:
“As for the 10,000 vegans, they should be consulting their physicians and addressing any deficiencies (including Vitamin A) that are present before getting pregnant, just like ALL women should do.”
Well, Andy, I have to admit that I’m not surprised by that answer, because, well…..how else could you respond to my question, right?
However, it certainly SEEMS like a disingenuous answer. You know fully well that most vegan women aren’t going to their doctor and getting a full micro-nutrient assessment done before they get pregnant…..don’t you? And I’m sure that you are not so naive about the training of M.D.s to think that they have any extensive knowledge about nutrition, how all micro-nutrients interact, the role individual genetics play, etc. -Just try asking 100 vegan women if they think their doctor knows more about nutrition than they do! (I’ve yet to meet a physician who knows more about nutrition than my 9 year old son….lol).
And you undoubtedly know that most doctors (at least American Docs) aren’t about to suggest that extensive nutritional screening be done for their patients, even if they DID know how to interpret most of these tests, which they largely DO NOT.
Most doctors just tell women considering pregnancy to stop smoking, cut out the alcohol, and be sure to get some folic acid. Some might check for iron status. PCRM just advises women to: “Begin a healthful diet before you become pregnant.” Many will recommend a prenatal supplement, which in the case of vegan women will generally contain a small amount of beta-carotene as a source of vitamin A. And that’s that.
I was vegan at the beginning of my first pregnancy 10 years ago …and between the three midwives and one physician that I saw, I had about 2 minutes of conversation about my diet. I was pregnant again 3 years ago and had a similar experience. Unless I came in there with symptoms of PROFOUND AND OVERT signs of malnutrition, I was on my own.
So what would sort of comprehensive assessment for micro-nutrient status do you think is actually happening? Is it covered by insurance? Is it already standard protocol in Canada? Would you please share with us your recommended protocol? That way, women will know what specific tests to ask for when they visit their doctor. Thanks!
Also, I did note in your response to me, you did at least agree that conversion to Vitamin A from beta carotene is low, that vegans have lower Vitamin A status than omnivores, that children with compromised immunity and/or nutritional status are going to have trouble meeting their needs from plant sources alone….and yet…..
On your own blog you claim that it is “so easy to get it from plant sources.” You even inform the reader that one quarter of chopped carrots provide over 100% of the daily recommended intake of Vitamin A! REALLY? No caveats, qualifications necessary?
You then go on to claim: “If you know of any hard data showing higher mortality in veg*ns resulting from Vitamin A deficiencies in developed nations, I would love to see it.”
Oh dear……
So….is this really the standard that you want to set for children’s health?
We can point to data that shows that vegan children have lower Vitamin A levels, we can show studies that show that about 45% of the populace has varying degrees of difficulty converting beta carotene to Vitamin A in the blood, we can show that people with thyroid issues, or infectious diseases, or are otherwise compromised are likely to suffer from low Vitamin A status if they are ONLY consuming plant sources. But……..until we see “hard evidence” that vegan children are actually DROPPING DEAD at significantly higher rates than omnivorous children due to Vitamin A deficiencies in developed countries, we should just advise ALL women to become vegan because it is so damn “easy” to get our vitamin A from plant sources? Is that where you want to leave it?
Note to all sane and intelligent humans of whatever dietary persuasion:
It appears that the likes of Dr.Bernard, Dr. Gregor, Doc to be Adam, et. al will continue to make their incredibly asinine one-size-fits-all recommendations for everyone…..the individual be damned……..Their minions will continue to promote the “way” as long as their particular child is okay, as long as there remains a single studly looking vegan bodybuilder.
The burden of proof is on us.
This is all so fascinating.
Some that comment….. those that have it all figured out…would be wise to remember that we….. like nature, are ever-changing and evolving ecosystems. Things can happen. What appears to be a perfect diet/lifestyle now may change as you grow older and succumb to our natural process ..evolution of passing.
It will never be as easy as eating one way or another. Lucky those who just go to sleep and that is that. Not many will be so fortunate. Disease will be a part of all of our lives. Diet in many forms will help some of us. Others will struggle to find something that they can tolerate if it is not too late.
This discussion will seem quaint if you ever find out you have Celiac or other such auto-immune that greatly contributes to health problems induced by diet that would appear to be uber- healthy.
A gluten-free diet is only part of a lifestyle change to which a person with Celiac must endure. Complex carbohydrates in the form of plant foods, dairy, fruits, vegetables, nuts, beans,etc. can be very offensive to a small intestine.
Enjoy your good health when you have it…as disease will drop you on your head..a wake-up call to the humble nature of our true being.
I am grateful for all those who comment in the spirit of helping,sharing their experiences, but not dictating their beliefs on what is a right way to eat.
Just wondering what is the purpose of spelling “veg*n” with a star?
One thing I notice is that most vegans are ethical vegans, whether or not they catch every single use of animal products. They don’t prioritize micronutrients, and they may or may not have figured it all out – we are moving forwards in terms of people’s understanding of how to execute diet. They prioritize the universal whole, whether or not trucks run over small animals while transporting coconuts or all the other odd points meat eaters make about why vegans aren’t perfect. Meat eaters only address their own well-being. Btw, Chris Kresser is not a doctor, he is an acupuncturist with an interest in digging up and correlating information, however focusing on the small details doesn’t always lead to the big answer, and Chris’s focus is on the well-being of his patients. Vegan focus is on the well-being of animals – or on ceasing the violence done to them in our name. Vegan – holistic Meat eater – me.
An encompassing term that denotes both vegan/vegetarian, without having to type it all out.
I think your record is stuck Erica… try reading some of the replies to your earlier comments. To repeat myself… your assumptions about this “meat eater” are wrong.
Earlier Erica you stated ” OK, meat eaters (and I am not a vegan or vegetarian) let’s hear about how you just want to eat bacon…”
…and before that you mentioned having been a pescatarian at some point (yes I do actually read the comments)…
so what gives..?
Are you a self-centered meat eater or a blessed vegan?
Wolf in sheep’s clothing, or a sheep in wolf’s?
Here is a critical review of this article, coming from an omnivore.
http://www.debunkingnutrition.com/2014/02/does-plant-based-diet-lead-to-nutrient.html
I just checked out that blog. The blogger may claim he’s an omnivore, but his site reeks of veg*nism.
Lots of references and praise for Esselstyn and Furhman there. Not one reference to meat on that site except for his bio claim that he enjoys a good burger every once in a while. It appears he’s pushing a veg*n diet under the guise of an omnivorous diet so that he gets more traffic.
Is there by any chance a coincidence that you and he share the same first name?
He’s me lol… and I do still eat meat. Funny that instead of arguing the facts, your defence is “I think he’s vegan.”
That.. in my view.. is a valid response, based on the little I have seen of your anonymous blog.
Veganity does not come from a basis of unbiased science but from emotion… “I don’t like killing animals!” So as I’ve repeatedly said, expecting unbiased research from such an agenda is like expecting unbiased information on race-relations from a bunch of neo-nazis.
If you think your little blog post has anything to add to the over 500 comments already posted here well good luck to you 😛
It may be a valid response to you, but I think that’s sad. I judge all arguments based on scientific merit, regardless of what side they come from.
I am not a vegan and have little interest in the ethical reasons for being vegan. I am interested in science, period.
If all you can do is dismiss claims based on what side of the fence you think they are coming from, then frankly, I am not interested in debating anything with you.
Science does not take “sides”.
And why the heck you think anyone should accept the “judgement” of an anonymous blogger is beyond me 😛
But looks like you have a fan in “Bethany” below…
I don’t think anyone should accept it – they can decide based on the merit of the argument. It doesn’t take popularity to be credible.
Who the heck said anything about “popularity’?
For example: Chris Kresser is obviously a real person… he has his picture and credentials posted here for everyone to judge for themselves whether they view him as a credible source or not… whether to even read his blog, or not!
I expect that some people have even met him in real life.
Beyond that he provides links that others can read for themselves.
Having read Good Calories, Bad Calories I no longer take any “expert” at their word.. least of all one that I literally cannot tell from the proverbial “Adam”.
You have no (zero) accountability to your readers… why would I even read your blog?
Sure I *might* find reasonable advice on race-relations at a neo-nazi website but I’m pretty sure I’d have to wade through the mire in order to find it… maybe I am better off going to the UN Human Rights Commission instead … what do you think?
Oh dear… that’s all I have to say.
I’ve been vegan for over ten year, conceived two (super healthy) babies while vegan and and now raising them on this extraordinarily healthy diet. They are never sick (although it seems all their peers are!).Take a peak at how animals are raised for food (no matter how it’s done, it’s unsustainable and beyond cruel if you care even an ounce for animals – and this includes birds who are used for their eggs). Take a peak at the health of vegans who are doing it right (key phrase – doing it right!) as their are many. Kresser can continue to say whatever he wants and because of his status he has a certain amount of clout and people believe what he’s saying but it’s simply not true. You can achieve optimal health on a vegan diet. The methane gases from factory farms are single- handedly destroying our planet, yet there’s still a lot of money to be made and I’d question this doctors personal motivation behind his big meat push.
first, i am sorry for your kids. comparing their health with the SAD junk eating other kids in class is misleading. you’d have to compare them to kids on a similar diet with added fish and grass fed meat to see the difference. second: those gases produced by cows are a byproduct of grass digestion with the help of bacteria in the bowel (cellulose is a polysacharide even the cow needs help with despite his 4 stomachs). vegans surely produce a lot of gases during digesting that plant matter in their bowels, thus ruining the planet too! beans, anyone? 🙂 and by the way no vegan under 40 has voting rights. trust me. a young body can take a lot of abuse, be it SAD or veganism. once you turn 40, all hell breaks loose if you don’t do it right. been there, lived it. just wait and see.
Tell that to Ellworth Wareham, M.D., centenarian who retired as a surgeon at age 95. He’s been vegan for 50 years. He still mows his own lawn. Then there’s Ruth Heidrich, age 79, Ironman triathlete and health educator, who’s been vegan for 30 years. And the man who coined the term “vegan,” Donald Watson, lived a very healthy 95 years, spending the last 60 of them vegan.
There are a number of flaws to this article. Here are just a few. a. He says the amount of veg you’ll need to eat to equal the Vit A in liver is: 2 cups of carrots, one cup of sweet potatoes or 2 cups of kale every day. That’s not an awful lot, the thought is mouth watering and an animal lives. b. He says we are low in Vit B 12, what he fails to mention, is that folic acid (high in veg) can do the job of B12, so it’s not really that necessary, and B 12 can be obtained from mushrooms, and an animal is spared. c. We are lacking in testosterone, so??? That’s probably why we are more peaceable, and an animal lives. Why does an acupuncturist think he is qualified to talk publicly about this? Not eaten animals for 50 years, have a healthy son – 21 – who has never eaten animals. I’m 63. There seems to be a huge backlash against our humanitarian movement, which is down to the fact that they are losing ground.
Why does this fellow, not mention homocystine, which is the proven reason that carnivores get cancer!
Juliet, my vegan-since-conception ten-year-old is also super healthy and doesn’t catch the illnesses her classmates do. People’s concerns are misplaced.
If you want actual facts about the points listed in this article then go to http://nutritionfacts.org/ and look them up.
“Actual facts”… wow! 😛
Ah yes. Dr. Greger. The veg*n who claims that eating an egg, one of nature’s most perfect foods, is akin to smoking a cigarette. Next.
He just cites studies like Kresser does.
No need to be offended by it.
Mister Kresser,
Humans are the only of the Hominid line that eat meat as a major part of their diet. Humans as other hominids are built to eat plant matter (teeth, intestines).
yes, we are the only ones. it is what made us what we are, beat the pack and take our place on the top of the food chain. thanks to meat our brains got bigger and smarter. humans are not built to eat exclusively plant matter. the silverback gorilla is. check and compare his digestive track to yours. if you don’t know the difference, you are ignorant.
Humans are opportunistic omnivores — as are our closest cousins the Chimpanzees…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyGxQq7jSA8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZhsM9OzeEo
Yes we can eat plants… we can eat animals…we can and do eat pretty much any other life-form on this planet.
Check out this extremely interesting debate – paleo versus plant based diets on Intelligence Squared
http://intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/past-debates/item/910-dont-eat-anything-with-a-face
Also, “Consumption of red meat has been found to increase the risk of death from heart disease, even when controlling for levels of fat and cholesterol2. To find out why, Hazen and his colleagues gave the nutrient l-carnitine — found in red meat and dairy products — to 77 volunteers, including 26 who were vegans or vegetarians. One committed vegan even agreed to eat a 200-gram sirloin steak.”
“Tests showed that consuming l-carnitine increased blood levels of trimethylamine-N-oxide (TMAO), a compound that, evidence suggests, can alter the metabolism of cholesterol and slow the removal of cholesterol that accumulates on arteries’ walls.”
“But even when they took l-carnitine supplements, vegans and vegetarians made far less TMAO than meat eaters. Faecal studies showed that meat eaters and non-meat eaters also had very different types of bacteria in their guts. Hazen says that a regular diet of meat probably encourages the growth of bacteria that can turn l-carnitine into TMAO.”
Double checking
To further make the case, researchers checked the levels of l-carnitine in the blood of nearly 2,600 people who were having elective heart check-ups. By itself, the nutrient didn’t seem to make a difference. However, people who had high levels of both l-carnitine and TMAO were prime targets for heart disease, further evidence that it’s the bacterial alchemy — not the l-carnitine alone — that poses the real threat.
Finally, the researchers found that feeding l-carnitine to mice doubled the animals’ risk of developing arterial plaques, but only when the mice had their usual gut bacteria. When the animals were treated with gut-clearing antibiotics, l-carnitine in the diet did not encourage plaques.
Daniel Rader, director of preventive cardiovascular medicine at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, says that the study makes a “fairly compelling” case that intestinal bacteria feeding on l-carnitine increase the risk of heart disease.
The finding should give pause not only to meat lovers, but also to people who take l-carnitine supplements, which are marketed with the promise that they promote energy, weight loss and athletic performance, says Hazen. “None of those claims have been proven,” he says. “I see no reason why anyone needs to take it.”
http://chriskresser.com/red-meat-and-tmao-its-the-gut-not-the-meat
I just went through the entire debate and I agree it is interesting. It did not change my position or my convictions but it was interesting.
My take on the panel, in case anyone cares…
Neal Barnard is slick — he knows how to present himself in front of an audience but he is also slimy… I do not trust him. I would not buy a used car from this man
Chris Masterjohn seemed overwhelmed and ineffectual,, sorry Chis but you had the facts.. just didn’t make a great impression with them. Neal Barnard was very pushy (to the point of being rude) and managed to establish himself as the de facto medical authority, which everyone seemed to buy into… no matter that he was being disingenuous
Joel Salatin is a very smart and down to earth guy… he knows what he is talking about and I could listen and talk with him all day
I think I was most impressed with Gene Baur… he seems to genuinely care and made some great points. I think he is misguided but I really liked him.
I am a lifelong salesman and I saw immediately that Chris Masterjohn was in over his head. He wrongly assumed that being armed with the facts was enough in a debate setting. The famous vegan doctors are famous because they are super salesmen who have prepared answers for every question. The debate was a triumph of style over substance, talking points and 3 second sound bytes over facts.
http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/2013/04/10/does-carnitine-from-red-meat-contribute-to-heart-disease-through-intestinal-bacterial-metabolism-to-tmao/
This is a blog by a woman who follows a carnivorous diet for health reasons. (Just meat and offal and bone broth).
http://www.empiri.ca/2012/08/my-carnivorous-diet.html
No, my point is not to convince anyone reading to consider an all-carnivorous diet. (I don’t even eat meat). I only mean to emphasize that the human body is VERY COMPLEX and a diet that works for you right now might not work for you in the future.
It should of course go without saying that what might work for you might NOT work for the person (especially the toddler) next door!
Hi Terry,
Unfortunately, it’s difficult to decipher who is speaking to whom in this thread, but since your question appears directly underneath mine, I’m going to assume it’s directed at me.
Is this the quote that you wanted credited?
“Veganism, outside of ascetic religious practices, is a product of a consumerist civilization, a convenience diet that would falter without supplements and highly processed and/or well-traveled food products.”
It’s by Christopher, and it appears in a statement directly above my own. I’m pleased to have an excuse to repeat it again. 🙂 Thanks for asking!
I’ve been Vegan for 17 years, I am healthy, less days off work due to sickness than anyone in my department, in fact I am struggling to work out when I was last of sick, could be four years ago when I got tonsilitus, (which meat eaters get too I believe!). If someone eats nothing but meat, they aren’t healthy, if someone eats nothing but tomatoes they aren’t healthy. Eat a balanced diet, change it up, whether you are Vegan, Veggie or meat eater, don’t buy this article. P.S. Does this guy hold stocks in a vitamin / supplement company????
I would’ve never guessed when I posted the first comment to this thread that there would be over 500 responses and an ever-escalating flame war. Speaking personally, I am astounded by the level of arrogance and close-minded thinking displayed by most vegans in this thread. But I am not surprised by it. When I was vegan, I was the same way. Plenty of compassion for animals but little for other people’s opinions.
The thing that stuns me most of all though is the naivete, particularly when it comes to the “less harm” doctrine of veganism. All of us, no matter what we eat, are causing tremendous amounts of harm daily. The only way to avoid doing so is to go off-the-grid and homestead, which very few of us are willing to do.
We can through studies back and forth at each other (and as much snark as science it seems) but at the end of the day, human beings en masse did not evolve as, or to be, vegans. Veganism, outside of ascetic religious practices, is a product of a consumerist civilization, a convenience diet that would falter without supplements and highly processed and/or well-traveled food products.
My opposition to the factory farming of animals has not changed, nor has my opposition to conventional mono-cropping of agriculture and GMOs. Worldwide, agriculture is at the forefront of human problems, whether it is starvation or over-consumption or climate change and there are no easy answers, and that includes such simple slogans as “go vegan” or “go paleo.”
Thank you, Christopher.
“Veganism, outside of ascetic religious practices, is a product of a consumerist civilization, a convenience diet that would falter without supplements and highly processed and/or well-traveled food products.”
Hear, hear! It is the self-entitled elitism that disgusts me the most. I live near Amish communities where people live off the land with the use of animals who they respect. When I was a vegan, I thought I was too good to buy cheese from those farmers–that I was actually doing better by animals by buying food imported from all corners of the globe! As if those ships carrying coconuts from Thailand, chocolate from Africa, chia seeds from Bolivia, etc. etc. etc., have no impact on animal life! I blush at my ignorance now.
can you please credit that quote?
It is from the comment just above it, by Christopher 🙂
And I wholeheartedly agree… these are “first World” issues we are having rammed down our throats here… try preaching a vegan gospel in a country that does not have the infrastructure to ship fresh produce in at all times of the year.
It’s true that we, as Americans have received almost no information about nutrition or where our food comes from. Even the mis-directed food pyramid is relatively recent. It is true that one diet does not seem to work equally well for all people, but that many people who try to control their diet based on their concerns did not have the appropriate information to do so optimally, because it didn’t exist. It is heartening that so many people are now able to discuss these things with more information at hand. It doesn’t however necessarily translate into most people making every personal food choice based on macronutrients although people who like to hang out in chat rooms like to go on as though that is the key. It is also true that we have been almost completely kept in the dark about how intertwined our lives are with the most horrific cruelty towards animals and those who take pleasure in posturing about how irrelevant that is to them are mis-directed, and that is certainly not something Chris Kresser is advocating, as he pointed out in the first lines of this blog post. Those people who find compassion annoying and irritating can count themselves at the beginning of their journey…those who simply haven’t been exposed to it but are open to new information are steps ahead.
There is more information out there now but it makes the tendency to eat donuts no less strong, so all we can all do is learn what we can, attempt to change to a whole food diet as best as we are progressively able, and to respect those whose choices are based on ethical considerations beyond our own, micronutrients be damned.
Okay,
I can see that none of my challenging questions are going to be answered by the “vegans” here, so for now, I just want to say one thing that’s been on my mind since the start of this exhausting thread:
I’m a former animal-rights oriented vegan, and I really strived to be as authentic as possible at the time. That meant ending my support for things that I knew required the use of animal parts…..like televisions, computers, etc. If I had to use a computer for college, I went to the school library, so that my choice had no economic impact.
So I find it really hard to take seriously the folks on here CLAIMING to be vegans, who don’t support the rights of people to use animal products to support the VITALITY OF THEIR BODIES, and yet have no problem buying industrially produced electronic equipment. Let’s make this clear: If you are one of those people and you are using an industrially manufactured computer right now (which contains the innards of animals) you are absolutely NOT a vegan……you are AT BEST an ASPIRING vegan, and at WORST a CLOWN. (Or that’s being mean to clowns…..how about a rank hypocrite?)
On a less confrontational note, can we ALL agree that some people do NOT thrive on “vegan” diets? For example, I met a mother last week whose daughter has severe allergies to both nuts and legumes. Can we at least agree that it’s a VERY GOOD THING that animal agriculture exists so that this girl can be nourished properly?
P.S. Someone asked another commenter why he has commented so often….Maybe because he has a lot to say? This isn’t one of those raw vegan sites, where people are banned and bullied and told to go away because they have the chutzpah to complain that their teeth are falling apart!
wow, my pc contains innards of animals? first time i hear it. never to late to learn. time to google. thanks 🙂
Hi Karin, I have noticed you are very adamant in defending your position and I find yours a fascinating story – but there are many gaps and believe me, I don’t expect you to share your life on a random blog. You do repeat many times, that you were a deeply involved “vegan” so seems like you might be making assumptions that all people are the same as you were, although you still don’t eat meat. But because those around you fell short of your expectations and definitions, you gave it up because you saw what other people were doing. “And I found it very interesting that the same people who were criticizing meat eaters…”
Now you seem to be working just as hard to defend consumption of animal products. Instead, I would have imagined you, of all people, would understand that if someone wanted to do something – like not eat animals or drink their secretions that you would respect their position – that at least this person is doing something. This why I have found your story interesting.
Although cliched it reminds of the starfish story, maybe a bit of wisdom does come with age: (I will repeat it here just in case anyone has not heard it)
A young man is walking along the ocean and
sees a beach on which thousands and thousands
of starfish have washed ashore. Further along
he sees an old man, walking slowly and
stooping often, picking up one starfish after
another and tossing each one gently into the
ocean.
“Why are you throwing starfish into the
ocean?,” he asks.
“Because the sun is up and the tide is going out
and if I don’t throw them further in they will
die.”
“But, old man, don’t you realize there are miles
and miles of beach and starfish all along it!
You can’t possibly save them all, you can’t even
save one-tenth of them. In fact, even if you
work all day, your efforts won’t make any
difference at all.”
The old man listened calmly and then bent
down to pick up another starfish and threw it
into the sea. “It made a difference to that one.”
“…or drink their secretions…”
Careful not to let your prejudices show… must keep up that pretense of being “OpenMinded”.
Is your implication that at least veg*ns are “doing something”..?
I support my local small-scale farmers, my local economy, I buy local and in season. I personally know, trust and can visit the farm where my grass-fed beef and pastured pork are raised. I personally know and trust the butcher who works directly for that farm. Same for my eggs, milk, vegetables etc… I am convinced that I am supporting a sustainable model of agriculture in the face of almost overwhelming forces which strive to dominate us (in the name of profit) with an incredibly wasteful and unsustainable model… a model that will likely lead to food riots and mass starvation. Surely this “doing something”..?
1. drinking milk whether human babies breast feeding or milk from an animal – are secretions = fact. (an externally secreted fluid designed specifically to nourish the young).
2. I was just saying that Karin seems to present an all or nothing premise. So yes those that choose to not eat animals products are doing something as it relates to her all or nothing stance (example.Karin
FEBRUARY 24, 2014 AT 8:35 AM. Not that those that chose to eat animals aren’t making difference.
3. I have not questioned yours or anyones decision to buy local, we all know that’s a better choice – I go to the farmers market for my veggies very week.
I know you would like to put me on a side animal vs. plant but I am high on empathy (highly empathetic person – HEPs). For example – I have the ability to step into the shoes of another person, aiming to understand their feelings and perspectives. So I am a very open minded person and follow the research on both sides of this topic so I can make the best decision for myself and family – not rely on a book writer to tell me.
So you keep saying but for an HEP you seem surprisingly willing to be patronising and insult others’ intelligence… as an example your assumption that I have done no research; based on nothing more than my unwillingness to share with you, my own quest for knowledge… it is none of your business so far as I am concerned.
Once again, your choice of words leaves me questioning your sincerity and credibility.
I am sorry if you feel I am patronising and insulting others intelligense – I certainly don’t mean to do this. I was only asking you about your research because you first challenged mine. See ya – no open discussion here.
“But it does tell me why you never answered my question as to where you do your research -you apparently don’t.”
Quite an insulting reach from my assertion that I am well read on these topics.
But I agree that with you, there is “…no open discussion here”
Hi Open Mind,
I was about to write a response to your other post, and I noticed this statement: “I go to the farmer’s market for my veggies every week.”
It will help me to better explain to you my position if I know where you are. You don’t have to be specific if you’d prefer not to be, but could you share me the nearest city?
I haven’t been able to get veggies at my Farmer’s Market since the fall!
Thanks!
Also:
You claimed that I have an “all or nothing” stance, which is profoundly ironic. Please reread what I wrote.
I was speaking about people using the term “vegan” to describe themselves. Sorry, but the fact is that veganism IS an all or nothing philosophy. It calls for an end to ALL animal use and consumption. And the people that use it to describe themselves use it to differentiate themselves from those who are merely trying to “do something.”
There are some self-described “vegans” who describe animal consumption as “murder.” Some of them really believe that feeding milk or beef to a 4 year old is committing a moral atrocity tantamount to murder. And yet, almost every single one of them buys things with animal parts in it.
What if gelatin from concentration camp victims were used to make that LCD screen instead?
If you don’t obstain from such products, then you are not a vegan. You may be a vegetarian who chooses to obstain from eating eggs and milk, but you are simply not a vegan. Not nearly. And nobody of consequence should take you seriously if you pretend to be one.
abstain 🙂
Hi Karin, obviously I live in a warm climate, I don’t think the place matters here.
This is confusing without a proper forum to discuss but here goes one more time – you do state as “fact” it is all or nothing: “Sorry, but the fact is that veganism IS an all or nothing philosophy.”
So the irony is that “their” definition or philosophy doesn’t match your definition or philosophy. You use a specific definition and assume all people use your definition. Fact: there are different definitions : “a vegetarian who omits all animal products from the diet” . Or this one – “Vegan. Does not eat dairy products, eggs, or any other animal product.” So it seems that your ideal definition is: “A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather.”
So it is not ironic but purely matter of semantics: “You may be a vegetarian who chooses to abstain from eating eggs and milk, but you are simply not a vegan. Not nearly”.
So maybe “they” should call “themselves” “simply” animal-eaters that don’t eat animals? Or maybe you could coin a new term for “them”? Karigans = Karin’s Vegans?
“And nobody of consequence should take you seriously if you pretend to be one.” Who are the people of consequence?
I am sorry you have had such an horrific experience with “vegans” but this site is too derisive for me to spend anymore of my time on. I am going to go spend time with my loved one who is one of “them” the “pretender”, the animal eater- who doesn’t eat animal products, a real live vegan, a person of “consequence” , “a person who is trying to do something” and not a “they”.
“This site is too derisive for me.”
That is coming from someone whose initial post included a link to one of the smarmiest people on all of youtube. I decided to watch a few minutes of one video created by “Plantpositive”, the “researcher” recommended to us by Open Mind. The video is supposed to be about a critique of Chris Masterjohn’s take on cholesterol. Plantpositive quickly makes a joke about Kresser being “dumb” and then proceeds to make another joke about both Kresser and Dr. Masterjohn being “retarded.” I guess I can’t blame him for being so uncomfortable with himself, considering PP’s limitations. But that level of scholarship is for minds far more “open” than mine.
😉
Karin, you didn’t answer OpenMind’s post for the most part? Just the derisive statement with another put down of sorts. I would be interested in hearing your reaction to the main subject of the post since you do seem to carry quite a bit of emotion around people who say they are vegan. Don’t get me wrong – we all do carry emotion and passion – its more than research that forms our beliefs around food choice.
Hard to reason with blind faith and emotion-based choices.
FrankG if you are emotionless, it doesn’t come across this way in many of your posts. Nutritional science is far from perfect. It appears as those if one stacked up all the research “for” eating the modern Paleo vs “against” less animal intake and the impacts to health there is an overwhelming win for against stack. So food choice is complicated and science is not perfect – for food all the answers don’t exist.
@Suzie.. a person can be passionate and enthusiastic without allowing it to cloud judgement.
I agree that the choices are complicated and that no-one has all the answers. This is precisely why I speak out when I hear people writing as if they DO have all the answers.
Vegan applies to what a person does not consume in their diet, it does not mean that they eat whole plant-based foods to a great degree nor does it mean they do not wear a fur coat.
Vegans decide not to include animal products in their diet for various reasons. You wish to apply a great caring for animals to all vegans but it is not clear to me even what percentage of vegans fall in that category.
New to this blog thread: It appears as though many people are off on tangents not related to Chris’s Intro above. Chris himself is not trying to “convert” vegans to meat eaters just wants them to think twice.
He was just offering as his recommendations, take them or leave them as fact based on your on research (Vit/hormone D synthesized from sun hitting our skin as the best source not mentioned here). It appears, although unsaid, that his recommended diet is also not “optimal” since he also recommends supplements.
“I hope this article can serve as a resource for anyone on a plant-based diet, whether they choose to start eating meat (or animal products, in the case of vegans) again or not.”
I must say that writing a book about diet is the way to go$$$! I think I will join the ranks. But off to my day job.
This article is ridiculous. Brewers yeast? LMAO. It’s NUTRITIONAL yeast, not brewers yeast. They’re completely different. I was raised on it and have never eaten meat in my life. I won the presidents Physical Fitness Award in 2 different high schools.
I don’t suffer from memory loss, in fact my memory stuns everyone. I can remember when I was a baby.
My 3rd generation herbivore kids are not deficient either. They are healthy and brilliant – all honors geniuses and have broken 75 year pull-up records at school.
This article is nonsense. He doesn’t even know the difference between brewers yeast and nutritional yeast.
I guess “kids” is precisely the right word if they are indeed “herbivores”… can they digest grass?
Seriously, I do wish you and yours well but please don’t think that repeating the same tired mantra will persuade me to change my life choices and convictions.. you are wasting your time here.
I read this article as being about pausing for thought before blindly accepting that veganity is the healthier choice… for me it is not… your mileage may vary.
the only thing i am smiling at here is your comment. i can spot a fake prophet when i see one and you are definitely it. do your kids do weighted pullups at school with 25% of their bodyweight in a backpack? because I do, and I am 47 btw. and no vegan either 🙂 i have yet to see a vegan to beat me at that. go tell my sixpack how healthy you are.
People used to think smoking was good for them too. Now, for the first time in the history of this planet, we have internet where we can share ideas globally and so far, fairly freely.
Blessed are those minds that had this figured out well before internet like Einstein, Da Vinci and myriad of others.
if vegan was bad for you, then all the vegans would be sick or dead by now but the truth is, we’re not.
today we have top gold medal winning athletes, bodybuilders. .the strongest man on earth today… all vegans.
why do people defend meat eating? because its the way they were brought up and some feel that to change, would make themselves look like everything they have believed over the years was … not “wrong” but they just don’t believe another way is possible.
the other way saves the environment and saves animals. If its all “the way of life etc” .. would YOU change places with a slaughterhouse cow?
Would you even take your kids to see the slaughter house? of course not. would you raise your dog from a puppy, then one day chop its head off, gut it cook it and feed it to your kids? of course not – not most of us anyway.
its ok to change for the better. people finally start to realise that smoking is not good for them and they gave it up.
its a change for the betterment of you, earth, mankind and certainly the animals.
the answers are not in a laboratory… the answers are in your heart.
P/
Phil, why don’t you climb down off your sanctimonious high-horse and actually read the thoughtful and well-reasoned comments here before going into auto-pilot and posting the usual vegan spiel… it really doesn’t improve with the telling.
As for your comparison of smoking to meat eating it really doesn’t work…
My heart is just fine: in terms of physical health, my life choices and my convictions regarding what I think is best for the planet and our future survival.
The fact that particular high-performance people are vegan does not prove that the reason is they do not consume animal products. It could be their specific vegan diet includes large amounts of the right vegetables and fruits. Our bodies get nutrition from what gets into our bodies, not from what is left out.
However, there are ample studies that indicate large amounts of animal products make people sick and even studies that show large amounts of dairy products do not produce strong bones.
Personally, I get about 85% of my calories from whole plant-based foods, less than 6% from animal products, and most of my fat from nuts, seeds, avocado and wild salmon.